What is the definition of a bull dyke...?

**SummerRainFemme** · 07-27-2007, 01:50 PM

My fiancee calls herself a bull dyke in refrence to herself at times.
What I would like to know is what is the definition of a bull dyke and how does that differ from stone and soft butch? there semes to be many more definitions than I thought.

Thanks
~Skye

**BrotherBilly** · 07-27-2007, 02:00 PM

I wish I could answer your guestion , but I can't ...I'm sure that you will get several different definitions of what a bull dyke is ..I personally think it's up to ones own definition .....Or as in the past you will have opened a can of worms in here ...Good luck ....

**Apocalipstic** · 07-27-2007, 02:02 PM

I love Bull Dykes.

To me a Bull Dyke is a hard butch with strong presence.

Many people use the word Stone to mean that they do not like to have sex in a way that is feminizing. Bull Dyke makes no sexual assumption. Some people also use the term Bull Dagger or just Dagger.
Some Bull Dykes are Stone and some are not.

Soft Dykes are a softer version....they do not present with the hard edge Bull Dykes do.

Am I helping at all?

Butches come in all sorts of wonderful flavors. :

**Shyfemmekat** · 07-27-2007, 02:04 PM

Originally Posted by Apocalipstic

I love Bull Dykes.

To me a Bull Dyke is a hard butch with strong presence.

Many people use the word Stone to mean that they do not like to have sex in a way that is feminizing. Bull Dyke makes no sexual assumption. Some people also use the term Bull Dagger or just Dagger.
Some Bull Dykes are Stone and some are not.

Soft Dykes are a softer version....they do not present with the hard edge Bull Dykes do.

Am I helping at all?

Butches come in all sorts of wonderful flavors.

I agree.

I Heart the Bull Dagger Swagger.

Yum.

SFK

**Beau4afemme** · 07-27-2007, 02:05 PM

K.. I'm a bulldyke. At least that's what I've heard yelled at me from unkempt, inarticulate men on the street. I'm good with it. So, I shall provide you with my personal definition:

bull - as in a power and a charge that encapsulates the energy of a tremendous thrust (it must be somehow visible, and I think it scares men who don't have that ability)

dyke - in Holland, it plugs the overflow

So, put that together, and you can see why I own this label proudly. Seems your fiance and I are both reclaiming that name for all. It's not a bad thing. *smile*

Beau

**Apocalipstic** · 07-27-2007, 02:06 PM

Originally Posted by Shyfemmekat

I agree.

I Heart the Bull Dagger Swagger.

Yum.

SFK

Oh yeah!

The phrase has been in use since the 1920's I believe.

It makes me shiver.

**Jules** · 07-27-2007, 02:42 PM

Just a little history here: When I first came out in *cough* 1970 there were an abundance of old school dykes around. This is befrore androgeny hit . There was a group of us 20 somethings that would kind of make fun of them...you know slicked back hair, suit and tie. We called them the "suit and tie" crowd. We considered ourselves a little more progressive in our jeans, boots, shirts and jean jackets. Little did I know that I, at least, would mature into one of the suit and tie crowd.

This doesn't mean that "dress" defines the person, but there was no mistaking a Bull Dyke when you ran across one. Actually they kind of scared me...lol, I was a butch in training so to speak, and one of these big ol bad bull dykes took me under her wing. 35 years later we are still close friends.

With all that verbiage, I thinks its hard to pigeon hole a definition for Bull Dyke, everyone has their own. But I did find this from American Heritage Dictionary, a definition which I found insulting by the way. I embrace my "bull dykness" and butchnes with great joy!

bull dyke

NOUN: Offensive Used as a disparaging term for a lesbian, especially one exhibiting behavior associated with stereotypically masculine traits.

**Sun** · 07-27-2007, 02:54 PM

I have only heard the term "Bull Dyke" used as a slur.

That is in 23 years of being "out" as Queer.

Anyone is welcome as far as I am concerned to apply any name at all to themselves. I personally have no use for the term especially since it seems to be a favorite among angry homophobic types.

**Apocalipstic** · 07-27-2007, 02:57 PM

Originally Posted by Sun

I have only heard the term "Bull Dyke" used as a slur.

That is in 23 years of being "out" as Queer.

Anyone is welcome as far as I am concerned to apply any name at all to themselves. I personally have no use for the term especially since it seems to be a favorite among angry homophobic types.

Maybe it is regional?

Mr. Cynthia has always thought of herself as a Bull Dyke, she is proud of the term.

I think its HOT!

**Sun** · 07-27-2007, 03:00 PM

Originally Posted by Apocalipstic

Maybe it is regional?

Mr. Cynthia has always thought of herself as a Bull Dyke, she is proud of the term.

I think its HOT!

Maybe it is regional darlin. I don't know, but I do recall a time when "Queer" was being embraced and not everyone was comfortable with it. The concept of taking back language that has been used to hurt, is very fine with me.

As I said, I personally don't care for the term but if it works for Mr. C, rock on!!

**Apocalipstic** · 07-27-2007, 03:05 PM

Originally Posted by Sun

Maybe it is regional darlin. I don't know, but I do recall a time when "Queer" was being embraced and not everyone was comfortable with it. The concept of taking back language that has been used to hurt, is very fine with me.

As I said, I personally don't care for the term but if it works for Mr. C, rock on!!

I think its the same kind of thing.

**Femfare** · 07-27-2007, 03:11 PM

I'm a Taurus, does that count...?

**joectigger** · 07-27-2007, 03:11 PM

Originally Posted by SummerRainFemme

My fiancee calls herself a bull dyke in refrence to herself at times.
What I would like to know is what is the definition of a bull dyke and how does that differ from stone and soft butch? there semes to be many more definitions than I thought.

Thanks
~Skye

How does your fiancee define bull dyke? How does that definition of bull dyke differ from stone and soft butch to your fiancee?

They could all be mutually inclusive on one person who identifies as all three, or they could be all separate terms of individuals. They could all wear the same uniform, could have the same hair cut, sexual boundaries...yet all have different names.

When I think of bull dyke or a bull dagger, I get the picture of the typical image of a 1950's working class butch in jeans, t shirt, flattop, and very hard edged appearing.

Stone butch doesn't give me a visual at all, probably from my interactions with so many different appearing self identifying stone Butches here in the community. And even the definition of what stone butch differs across that of the stone butches and their boundaries.

Soft butch usually gives me an image of a tomboyish looking woman.

But I have no set definitions on where any of these terms begin and end. I think it's up to the person identifying as any of the identities to say what they mean to them.

**JetBoy** · 07-27-2007, 03:21 PM

I consider myself a Bull Dyke or Bull Dagger at 6 ft, 240 lbs the stereotype fits.

I've been called it a time or 100, sometimes as a slur but more often by others who consider themselves bulls or dags.

The only thing soft about me is my belly.

**joey1** · 07-27-2007, 03:27 PM

We're the ones with horns and testicles.

**JetBoy** · 07-27-2007, 03:36 PM

Brilliant!

**JackSpade** · 07-27-2007, 03:56 PM

Originally Posted by Sun

I have only heard the term "Bull Dyke" used as a slur.

That is in 23 years of being "out" as Queer.

Anyone is welcome as far as I am concerned to apply any name at all to themselves. I personally have no use for the term especially since it seems to be a favorite among angry homophobic types.

Last year I was called bulldyke by one of those red neck homophobic types who was very drunk and that is the only time I have been fearful for my safety since returning to Kentucky.

Any time I have ever heard the word used it has always been in a derogatory fashion.

**citybutch** · 07-27-2007, 04:02 PM

From Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyke_%28lesbian%29

There are a few good books to read on the subject:

Judy Grahns Another Mother Tongue

The anthology Dagger

Read some Audre Lorde, Julia Penelope, and another GREAT book called Female Masculinity

There is nothing offensive to me about it... I like the strength of the word....

**citybutch** · 07-27-2007, 04:05 PM

HAHA... great... love it...

Originally Posted by joey1

We're the ones with horns and testicles.

**Toughy** · 07-27-2007, 05:00 PM

*pick me....pick me!!!!!

I have been called bull dyke/dagger ever since I came out (1970)........I like it.....it puts a smile on my face......because it has such an 'in your face' kind of ring to it....

The meaning I learned was that it was for a butch with that hard/stone edge.....ya just looked at one of us and you knew you were looking at a bull dyke/dagger.

As to it be used as a slur...........if a redneck homophobe calls me a bull dagger.......I smile, maybe chuckle a little and say: Thank you....now what's your point?

They usually shut up and go away then.

**Kyssme** · 07-27-2007, 05:24 PM

i know that it's a very old term ...

i remember my grandma telling me about her flapper days in the mid-20s and using the term to describe someone who used to come out with her and my grandad- there was a girl she partied with who was 'in the life' and her 'bulldyke' always accompanied her. my gram told me that most folks had no idea that the 'bulldyke' wasn't a man.

**Fem-me** · 07-27-2007, 05:37 PM

Originally Posted by Jules

Just a little history here: When I first came out in *cough* 1970 there were an abundance of old school dykes around. This is befrore androgeny hit . There was a group of us 20 somethings that would kind of make fun of them...you know slicked back hair, suit and tie. We called them the "suit and tie" crowd. We considered ourselves a little more progressive in our jeans, boots, shirts and jean jackets. Little did I know that I, at least, would mature into one of the suit and tie crowd.

This doesn't mean that "dress" defines the person, but there was no mistaking a Bull Dyke when you ran across one. Actually they kind of scared me...lol, I was a butch in training so to speak, and one of these big ol bad bull dykes took me under her wing. 35 years later we are still close friends.

With all that verbiage, I thinks its hard to pigeon hole a definition for Bull Dyke, everyone has their own. But I did find this from American Heritage Dictionary, a definition which I found insulting by the way. I embrace my "bull dykness" and butchnes with great joy!

bull dyke

NOUN: Offensive Used as a disparaging term for a lesbian, especially one exhibiting behavior associated with stereotypically masculine traits.

I was coming out in the late 70's. I was in college, and I definitely got the message that bull dykes and femmes were old fashioned. The myth was perpetuated, even among lesbians, that butches and femmes were just emulating patriarchal heterosexual relationships. Andro dyke was in, and most of us struggled to maintain an andro look. I completely failed at this, and ended up concluding that I wasn't gay because I couldn't be andro, nor could I find my andro lover (and she was "lover," not girlfriend, God forbid!) attractive. There were a few butches on the edges of our group, and they were the big, strong, masculine women that honestly scared me to death. Or, I thought so. Now I know that the breathless catch in my chest was attraction, not fear!!

On the subject of language, when I first came out, "girlfriend" and "queer" were not commonly used in my community. When I came out again, close to four years ago, it was difficult for me to be comfortable with using those words, but I do now. Bull dyke was a slur, but I embrace it now, as I embrace my femininity, and feel a sense of pride and community when I hear it.

**Carroll** · 07-27-2007, 05:38 PM

Originally Posted by Sun

I have only heard the term "Bull Dyke" used as a slur.

That is in 23 years of being "out" as Queer.

Anyone is welcome as far as I am concerned to apply any name at all to themselves. I personally have no use for the term especially since it seems to be a favorite among angry homophobic types.

I've only ever heard the term used by bio-males as a negative way to describe an overtly masculine woman.

**Kyssme** · 07-27-2007, 05:46 PM

seriiusly, you guys ... the term goes way back in our gay history- i'm sure how it is used today is nothing like what it meant originally.

**Carroll** · 07-27-2007, 05:53 PM

Taken from Wikipedia...

Dyke is a slang term for a lesbian. Originally it was a derogatory label for a masculine or butch woman, and this usage still exists. However, it has also been reappropriated as a positive term implying assertiveness and toughness, or simply as a neutral synonym for lesbian.[1]

I personally prefer not to be referenced by this term.

**theeladyscorpian** · 07-27-2007, 06:30 PM

Originally Posted by Toughy

*pick me....pick me!!!!!

I have been called bull dyke/dagger ever since I came out (1970)........I like it.....it puts a smile on my face......because it has such an 'in your face' kind of ring to it....

The meaning I learned was that it was for a butch with that hard/stone edge.....ya just looked at one of us and you knew you were looking at a bull dyke/dagger.

As to it be used as a slur...........if a redneck homophobe calls me a bull dagger.......I smile, maybe chuckle a little and say: Thank you....now what's your point?

They usually shut up and go away then.

Thank you Toughy I'm sick and thys is the end of my typing for the day....But thys is exactly what it meant...In Gay Hystory and in the 80's/90's in New York....at least the circle we hung wyth!...

My first called hyrself a BullDagger...as did her very large social circle of friends....
They wore it as a badge of honor.....

Their motto was and possibly still is:
THERE SHOULD BE NO SHAME IN THE LABEL YOU CLAIM!
Bahhhh rambling...

Have a good day all!

**Toughy** · 07-27-2007, 06:43 PM

Originally Posted by Carroll

Taken from Wikipedia...

Dyke is a slang term for a lesbian. Originally it was a derogatory label for a masculine or butch woman, and this usage still exists. However, it has also been reappropriated as a positive term implying assertiveness and toughness, or simply as a neutral synonym for lesbian.[1]

I personally prefer not to be referenced by this term.

laughin...you must hate The Dyke March.....and Dykes on Bikes (the real legal name now).....

----------

seriiusly, you guys ... the term goes way back in our gay history- i'm sure how it is used today is nothing like what it meant originally.

I dunno......I kiind of think in working class dyke bars.....which still do exist across the country......bull dyke/dagger means the same thing it meant all the way back to the 20"s. I also think it's a working class kind of term, much in the same way that butch/femme came out of working class folks.

-----------
your welcome ladyscorpian......although my eyes would truly love it if you made your font bigger........laughin.....I have to get my magnifying glass to read any of your posts....

**mistyblue9802200** · 07-27-2007, 06:46 PM

Over here in UK we use term *DieselDyke* instead of *Bulldyke* to me *DieselDyke* is a term i relate to a
Strong Butch women very masculine in most of their mannerisums & ways, alot of DieselDykes i have seen have been covered in Tattoos ( Just coinsedence )
**just my wee cents** not meant to offend anyone

**Fem-me** · 07-27-2007, 09:16 PM

Originally Posted by SummerRainFemme

My fiancee calls herself a bull dyke in refrence to herself at times.
What I would like to know is what is the definition of a bull dyke and how does that differ from stone and soft butch? there semes to be many more definitions than I thought.

Thanks
~Skye

Looking at your question again, Skye--

My partner would possibly be called a "bulldyke," even though she doesen't bother with this type of distinction. She's big and strong, and very masculine in manner and appearance. She is not stone, but she could if she wanted to be. So, I don't think being stone/not stone and identifying as a bulldyke are mutually exclusive. IMO, anyone can be stone if they say so. I view that as their sexual preference, and would view soft butch or bulldyke as gender identity. Again, no offense to anyone who views it otherwise.

**justaroccitygirl** · 07-27-2007, 10:03 PM

Originally Posted by Fem-me

Looking at your question again, Skye--

My partner would possibly be called a "bulldyke," even though she doesen't bother with this type of distinction. She's big and strong, and very masculine in manner and appearance. She is not stone, but she could if she wanted to be. So, I don't think being stone/not stone and identifying as a bulldyke are mutually exclusive. IMO, anyone can be stone if they say so. I view that as their sexual preference, and would view soft butch or bulldyke as gender identity. Again, no offense to anyone who views it otherwise.

From my experience and my own identity formation, stone -in terms of sexuality and permitted sexual activities- is not something that can be switched on and off. Perhaps if you're speaking of something like the notion of "hard" butch when you say "stone." *shrugs*

Stone butch and bulldagger are definitely mutually exclusive terms... one does not necessarily have anything to do with the other- sans the "butch" part. Bulldagger and butch definitely conjure masculinity to mind...

**unndunn** · 07-27-2007, 10:16 PM

Originally Posted by Beau4afemme

K.. I'm a bulldyke. At least that's what I've heard yelled at me from unkempt, inarticulate men on the street. I'm good with it. So, I shall provide you with my personal definition

this is hilarious.

Unn/been called a bull dyke, but maybe they thought I was full of bull?

**Fem-me** · 07-27-2007, 10:27 PM

Originally Posted by justaroccitygirl

From my experience and my own identity formation, stone -in terms of sexuality and permitted sexual activities- is not something that can be switched on and off. Perhaps if you're speaking of something like the notion of "hard" butch when you say "stone." *shrugs*

Stone butch and bulldagger are definitely mutually exclusive terms... one does not necessarily have anything to do with the other- sans the "butch" part. Bulldagger and butch definitely conjure masculinity to mind...

I'm sorry if I didn't communicate more clearly. I agree with your comments, and was trying to convey exactly what you're saying. I don't think sexual identity can be turned on or off. I agree that one term does not necessarily have anything to do with the other. Thanks.

**Carroll** · 07-28-2007, 11:14 AM

Originally Posted by Toughy

laughin...you must hate The Dyke March.....and Dykes on Bikes (the real legal name now).....

Note I said "I personally"... do not prefer to be referenced by that term.

I do not "hate" any march that represents the community.

Funny, I just finished reading a thread where they're advising a newbie to "just be hymself" but in this one, my personal preference is being questioned for not wanting to be referred to as a dyke and that is just plain "bull" to me...
----------
.....

I dunno......I kiind of think in working class dyke bars.....which still do exist across the country......bull dyke/dagger means the same thing it meant all the way back to the 20"s. I also think it's a working class kind of term, much in the same way that butch/femme came out of working class folks.

-----------
your welcome ladyscorpian......although my eyes would truly love it if you made your font bigger........laughin.....I have to get my magnifying glass to read any of your posts....

.....................

**citybutch** · 07-28-2007, 11:22 AM

in my best Popeye voice:

I'yam what I'yam

**sheisoutdoors** · 07-28-2007, 11:25 AM

Some theories *click-able*

**sheisoutdoors** · 07-28-2007, 11:28 AM

I wish I could remember the whole story...in an under-grad sociology course we were all told that Dyke was actually a shortened name for a specific female warrior. Does anyone else remember learning about this too?

**citybutch** · 07-28-2007, 11:33 AM

Judy Grahn had the theory in Another Mother Tongue that the word dyke came from the Goddess Boadicea....

It's a matter of discussion I think...

**sheisoutdoors** · 07-28-2007, 11:36 AM

Originally Posted by citybutch

Judy Grahn had the theory in Another Mother Tongue that the word dyke came from the Goddess Boadicea....

It's a matter of discussion I think...

Boadicea... yes, that's it exactally. Thanks

**Toughy** · 07-28-2007, 11:44 AM

posted by Carroll
Note I said "I personally"... do not prefer to be referenced by that term.

I do not "hate" any march that represents the community.

Funny, I just finished reading a thread where they're advising a newbie to "just be hymself" but in this one, my personal preference is being questioned for not wanting to be referred to as a dyke and that is just plain "bull" to me...

dude........dang.......I was not questioning anything........it was a joke......good grief.....