War wih Iraq?

[traveler]

Wow! I had no idea we lived in a fascist state that dictated we couldn't speak our minds. <looking out the window for the SS soldiers> Hmmm...all i see is snow...

[tattooedturtle]

Nonetheless, Both yourself and turtle again provided another example of the double standard in the politics thread with your recent statement of being offended by my comment of "I am an American. Some of the others in this forum might not value what they have, but I do."

When did I say I was offended, Mia? I simply made the statement that I too value what I have in response to your own statement. I think that it was my attempt to say that we can be anti-war and still value what we have here. Valuing what we have doesn't mean that we have to agree with the government or the decisions that our leaders make.

[mia]

Originally posted by traveler
Wow! I had no idea we lived in a fascist state that dictated we couldn't speak our minds. <looking out the window for the SS soldiers> Hmmm...all i see is snow...

Nope it's called freedom of speech traveler. They speak, and then mia has her say too. that's how it works.

It's not "let's shut mia up" anymore....

[MsMissy]

Originally posted by mia
Missy, don't change the subject, which is the double standard.

How did I change the subject?

[mia]

Originally posted by tattooedturtle
When did I say I was offended, Mia? I simply made the statement that I too value what I have in response to your own statement. I think that it was my attempt to say that we can be anti-war and still value what we have here. Valuing what we have doesn't mean that we have to agree with the government or the decisions that our leaders make.

then I assume wrong... sorry.

[tattooedturtle]

Turtle, if you and HB had a kid it would be the most amazing kid on earth! LOL! Of course it would also be really confused...

LOL..very funny...the child might be very well-balanced...and, of course, any kid that I have, Traveler, would be "different" to say the least.....

[tattooedturtle]

Originally posted by mia
then I assume wrong... sorry.

Yeah, assumptions can get you bent out of shape for no reason. Your apology is accepted. Now I'm off to bed. Work comes early.

[slutbucket]

Oh turtle, don't forget to read little Stalin the next chapter of Karl Marx does the Dallas Cheerleaders before you go to bed... I'm too strung up on junk and I have have three more customers that need a massage... thanks hun.

*LMAO* talk about the queen of changing the subject... mia can you follow just one track of thought yet? I see you flutter more straw men in an argument than I've seen in ages... so are you going to name who you ment was anti-american or are you just going to hide behind vauge insults...? did you mean me? cause I really don't give a shit if someone thinks I'm anti-american... I'm a CANUCK... so flinging anti-american at me is like calling me a loaf of bread.

And traveler... yeah... there are other biases... but if you watch a variety of news from US, canada, britian and english broadcasts from germany etc... you can sorta piece together a better idea... yes the biases are different in each one but when you see several sides it's easier to 1) pick out where one's own country censors the media 2) get a better understanding...

plus theres some great info out there on how to pick out flasified images in the media, and that's WELL worth the effort to see... I've seen many falsified photos in canuck and american photos in the news papers and news sites. usually around presidents. They take things out of those photgraphs all the time. Cover up people, take other out, put in pro-statements on banners where con ones actually were...

anyway blah blah blah... well time to go service another comrade before I go put valium in little stalin's bottle.
night night brothers and sisters!

~ honeybarbara AKA comrad SlutBucket

[Toughy]

I get busy for a couple of days and come back to a pissing contest and Mia is losing big time.....laughing......

50% of the people of Iraq are under 15.........for goodness sake MIA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And I am NOT anti-American and neither is any other American (whether they be capitalists, communist or socialist) who does not believe in KILLING other human beings......esp children......

I say to you AGAIN Mia...........I am a Vietnam Era Veteran.....I live on a daily basis with the dismemberment, death and destruction of that little war....when I was in the Army I thought it was just and right......well darlin.....I was WRONG.....it was unjust and not the right thing to do......

[Eve]

An Open Letter to Mia from Eve

Dear Mia,

I hate to single you out here because I am hearing that you are feeling attacked and vilified. I don't want to add to that feeling, and I want you to know that I bear you no personal animosity. I understand how difficult it can be to hold a political perspective that doesn't receive a lot of support from the people in your community because I have often found myself in just such a situation, and I know it isn't easy.

Assuming that b-f.com is your community in some way (not all ways, not your only community, but one of them), I can see how difficult it would be to be in your shoes. I have sympathy for that.

However, I have to tell you something. I agree with the folks who are saying your manner of posting, your approach to those who disagree with you, and your style of conversation are often quite offensive, attacking, belittling, and condescending. I, personally, left the Bush thread because of you. Not because I disagreed with you (although I do at almost every turn), I'm an opinionated bitch and have no problem with conflict and disagreement. Rather, I left because I couldn't stomach trying to engage with you and having you respond to me with the personal vitriol I saw you exhibit towards others. I left because your presence became overwhelming in that thread, and I did not want to engage at that time. I have avoided this thread, one that is near to my heart on several VERY personal levels, for the same reason.

The topics in the threads you inhabit (Bush, war, this war, nationhood, patriotism, etc.) are all ones I think about quite often. But your tone, your approach, and the sense I had that you didn't listen to the substance of anyone else's posts left me feeling frustrated and unwilling to get into it with you. I made that decision, I'm not blaming you for it. I am merely letting you know that there is at least one person, and perhaps many others, who find your approach to dialogue quite unpalatable. I am owning my own inability to engage with you, and I am trying to be honest with you about it.

My decision to not post where you were was a personal one. But, when others had that same sense of your posts and pointed this out to you, your response was completely lacking in engagement with their concerns and actually turned quite vitriolic. This fact makes me feel as though I should acknowledge my response to you personally, if only to lend weight to what I perceive as a valid critique of your style of engagement.

I will admit my bias here: I disagree with you on just about every point you make. We do not share a common belief system. However, even with that bias, I think the following observations might have some merit:

If several people are telling you that they have a problem with your style of communication, it may very well be that there is a problem with your style of communication.

The fact that at least at least 6 well-established and yet DIVERSE members of this community (Emma, Honey, Traveler, Toughy, Turtle, and Fly don't all "hang out" in that Forum way) have raised this concern with you may point to the fact that it's at least worth _thinking_ about whether there might be a problem on your end in terms of communication.

Nobody is insisting that you think what they think (although I'm sure there's an air of persuasion in ALL our posts). Rather, people are telling you, quite specifically, why they find you offensive, why they have trouble engaging with you, why your posts read as logically flawed and your arguments unconvincing, why they lose their tempers with you, why their response to you is often negative. Now, people have gotten snippy with you, it's true. If we were all perfect that wouldn't happen. But it seems pretty clear that these folks are getting snippy because there is a concern with HOW you say more than there is a concern with WHAT you say (although there is concern with WHAT you say as well).

You state that you don't like feeling silenced. You state that you are not happy with the treatment you are receiving. I understand that, but I offer this: Perhaps you have some agency in this situation, and if you don't like the responses you are getting, you have the ability to change your approach and engage with folks in a way that doesn't alienate them. This doesn't mean you have to change your opinion, but it might mean that you have to be willing to listen to other people's opinions without making it personal when you disagree.

Your b-f.com community is having issues with your ways and styles of posting. We are not telling you that you must believe as we do (an impossible thing, given the fact that we don't all agree about ANYTHING). We are telling you that if you want to engage in dialogue and discourse, there are some things you might want to examine about your style of engagement, because there are some things about your current approach that are unacceptable, at least to some of us.

Of course, you can choose to ignore these requests. Or, you might decide that it is important enough to you to stand by your communication style and NOT change. That's a decision you have the right to make. But please don't be surprised or hurt or upset if your refusal to engage with your own approach leaves others with a less-than-strong desire to engage with what you think about things.

It's not JUST what we think that matters. HOW we say it matters in huge HUGE ways.

Words ARE powerful. Power comes with responsibility. You have the power to decide how you are going to approach this topic, and the responsibility to listen to others even if you don't like what they're saying.

Assuming you still find value in being a part of this community, I offer this advice from an admittedly bossy, opinionated bitch who has had several heated disagreements here:

Whenever possible, speak specifically and avoid generalizations about the folks here.

Own your own shite. If you choose to post with anger or animosity, own it for what it is.

If HOW you say something hurts/angers/upsets another person, OWN the responsibility. If someone says they are hurt/angered/irritated by you, there's probably a reason for it. Clarify. Examine _how_ you said what you said, figure out where you might owe apologies (even to people you don't "like"), make them, move on. If you feel you said it in the only way possible, own the fact that you hurt/angered/upset someone and that you are OK with hurting/angering/upsetting people.

If you feel upset/hurt/angered by a person's approach or tone, let them know this without resorting to attacks, snide comments, belittling behavior, or defensiveness.

Don't be a martyr about people not thinking yer the bees knees, especially when you make statements against whining and tell folks to put on their "big girl" panties.

Best,

~Eve

[MsMissy]

You are forever a diplomat, and your input is always appreciated.

Thank you.

[mia]

Originally posted by Eve
An Open Letter to Mia from Eve~Eve

Eve, Please don't say that you hate to single me out here Eve, because this is exactly what you intend to do. I'm not going to be easy on you here, because I'm not one for mincing words and you should obviously know that by now. I knew when you left this thread. If I recall correctly you were an *anti-bush junkie* who couldn't wait to see to turn on the t.v. to see what Bush was fucking up next. Well, that offends me too Eve. Alot of what gets posted in this forum offends me. It offends me greatly, but I keep on posting in this community and I like it here.... until recently.

These issues are greatly important to me just as they are to you and everyone else. Do you refer to yourselves as arrogant, hateful and whatever else you choose to call me because of what you feel and write? Well hey, you know what, that's a two way street Eve and I didn't read a word about any of the other posters. Maybe I *should* go back and post all the jabs and insults directed at me over the past several months in these threads. Then again, what's the point.

I'm not going to keep defending myself in this forum, because at some point this bashing is going to need to end. It is clear that my views will not be in agreement with a majority of those who post in these political threads. I will make it a point to temper my posts with a little more sensitivity. I will not however, be silent any longer about the double standard in this forum when it comes to what is percieved offensive remarks and posts. If you people can not agree to behave and keep your own people respectful and in line, then it is unfair to expect the same from myself, just because you happen to disagree with my political viewpoint. Up until this point I have seen no personal responsibility on any of your parts when it comes to this matter. I find that not only hypocritical but very devisive when it comes to being able to discuss political matters in a fair matter.

I would appreciate a response to my last comments from many of you who have responded to these issues.

[MsMissy]

Well this arrogant, hateful, hypocritical, bitch is going on vacation. See you all next week.

[Eve]

OK Mia, I'll play.

1. I left the BUSH thread, not this one. I never entered this one before now because of the reasons I detailed earlier regarding your way of being present. Specifically.

2. I stated that I was an anti-Bush junkie, that I thought Bush was a moron, and that I didn't believe that the election process was carried out justly. I stand by those statements. I don't hate the man, but the Grammar Top in me can't help being horrified by statements such as "put food on your family" and "make the pie higher" from the pResident (tip o' the keyboard to Toughy). Which doesn't even begin to cover all the REAL reasons I think he's less than intellectually gifted, as well as all the other problems I have with him politically and philosophically. No intention to offend you or anyone who might disagree with that assesment of the man. You hate Clinton (he wasn't perfect, but I liked him and still do). I'm not offended by that. I can't see why my dislike for an elected official would offend you. That strikes me as a bit absurd.

3. I never referred to anyone as arrogant nor hateful, though I do find some folks to be so. I try very hard to avoid personal attacks, and I work tirelessly to cure myself of my inclination towards being nasty when upset. I try to remain calm and engage with those I disagree with in a logical and respectful manner. Thus the open letter format. It wasn't intended to hurt you, though I realize some of what I said was hard to hear. It wasn't written to hurt your feelings. It WAS written in an attempt to say some hard things to another adult about problems/concerns I had with their communication style.

4. Although I DIDN'T personally slam you (I never said "Mia is a jerkface" or anything along those lines), I DID say that I found

your manner of posting, your approach to those who disagree with you, and your style of conversation [to be] quite offensive, attacking, belittling, and condescending.

I stand by those statements, and your latest post only reinforces my belief that my interpretation is correct. According to me, of course. Ha!

5. While I did mention that I thought people had gotten testy with you, I didn't go into great depths about that because to ME, it seems like you earned that treatment in a way. Not that ANYONE deserves to be treated with disrespect, but that when you treat OTHERS with disrespect I tend to undertand when they respond in kind. And in my opinion, you often treat others and their opinions with disrespect. There is a difference between disagreeing with respect and courtesy and treating other opinions as worthless, ill-informed, ill-formed, juvenile, beneath consideration, and worthless. There have been many times where it seemed to me you were doing the latter. Thus I am not surprised when those who's opinions you so treat are not all lovey-dovey with you.

5B. I will say that I've seen several people go out of their way to remain courteous with you even when I would have snapped, and I respect those folks all the more. But honestly Mia, I wrote the letter to you NOT to single you out as "bad" or "evil," 'cause I don't KNOW you. I don't KNOW if you're what I would name "bad" or "evil" and it's really not the point I'm making anyway. I did it because sometimes we all need to be called on our behaviour, because it has been an incredible life-lesson to ME when people have called ME on my behaviour, because I think honest and forthright engagement with each other may be painful but it's worthwhile, and because I believe you are an adult. I did it 'cause I care enough about this community to be honest and say difficult things, even when it's not popular, it's not easy, and it makes me out to be a big bitch. I own that. I am OK with that. I don't want to hurt people, but one of the things I am committed to is honest engagement. I am honestly engaging you.

6. This is a conversation about volatile and extremely complicated issues. I don't believe that there is one TRUTH to anything, but especially not in the case of such difficult discussions. More importantly, this is a community. Sometimes communities have to call their members on behaviour that is problematic. It has happened to me, and I benefitted from it. I wasn't always graceful or perfect, but I learned. Engaging with others who are different from oneself involves being able to stretch and learn and grow. My letter was an attempt to ask you to do some stretching in some areas of your conversational style.

7. Your behaviour in some of these threads is unacceptable to me. That's an opinion. It has power, it matters, but I'm not under the delusion that it's "Truth." I don't know you. I only know your posts. My opinion is that your posts are often offensive, attacking, belittling, and condescending. I do not know who "my people" are, nor whom, exactly, is expected to keep whom in line. I try to hold each person responsible for themselves, and I DO think it's fair to hold YOU, Mia, responsible for your posts. Nobody else, just you.

8. Again, although I disagree vehemently with your political standpoint, my issue isn't about that. It's about your manner of engagement, about how you engage in disagreement, and about your style of communication. You can hold whatever opinion you want and I will defend your right to it. You can even express whatever opinion you want, in whatever manner you want, and I will defend that right. I also believe I have the right to call you on shite that I don't like. You don't have to change. You don't have to believe that I have any insight whatsoever. You are free to dismiss me and my opinion as worthless. I won't lose sleep over that. But this post and my previous letter are both attempts at engaging with you the way I would hope someone would engage with me if I was embattled and they felt I was partially responsible. Again, you may find all of this worthless because you may find my opinion worthless. I hope that is not the case.

9. There may, indeed, be a liberal bias to the overall political perspective on this site. Not liberal enough for me at times, but I VALUE the fact that my flamin' liberal ass is embraced and loved by people who ABSOLUTELY disagree with me. Hell, MissPris and I are about as polar as you can get, but she values me FOR my difference, she engages with my opinion, she laughs at my jokes. I dig her in the same ways. We're different and we're OK with that. Communities are NOT built on everyone liking everyone else. They are built on people learning how to work and play well with those they DON'T particularly like because the community is important enough to do so. There are plenty of people here who really don't like me. There are plenty of people who don't agree with me about anything and think I'm a big whompin' idiot. They still treat me with respect, and I try to do the same. I feel confident that people would afford you the same respect were you to offer THEM respect in return. It is my opinion that you do not offer people respect. Thus, it is not surprising to me that your opinions and viewpoints don't get "heard" very well sometimes, and I do NOT believe it is because your opinion is in the minority. My opinion is OFTEN contrary to what "most" people here think. But I offer my opinions with respect and courtesy (most of the time, I do screw up often), and my opinion is almost always "heard" even when it's disagreed with. I think THAT (respect and courtesy for those who we disagree with) is what is needed for a "fair" discussion of these issues. I think THAT is what the problem is with your posts, not their content (though I DO have issues there, that's NOT what this is about). I don't think I can board the "poor Mia" train because I think you bear a great responsibility for the treatment you are receiving.

10. A moment of personal responsibility: I am truly sorry if I hurt your feelings. I know that much of what I said must have been very hard to hear. I understand that I was saying some difficult things, and I bear responsibility for any hurt that I caused you. I am sorry for causing that hurt, but I believed (and still believe) that it was important enough for me to say those things even though it meant your feelings might be hurt. I truly do not have any personal hatred for you, and I hope you believe that. I do have distaste for the manner in which you engage, and I offered my post as a means of talking with you about that fact. I hope that I wrote in a way that wasn't personally attacking. I WAS calling you on some shite, and I own that too. It's OK if you don't like me. It's OK if you are angry with me. It is OK if you think I have it all wrong. It is OK if you find me to be someone whose opinion you don't value at all. I understand those things, and I understand my responsibility in causing them. But I hope that you know I was trying to engage with you as an equal and as a member of a community I value greatly. If I didn't think you were worth anything, I wouldn't have taken the time and energy to say anything at all. I am quite good at ignoring people I find to be stupid and inane. I find you to be intelligent and articulate at times, and I took the time to engage with you because of those things. I'm sorry if that didn't come through in my earlier post.

Hope this clarifies my intent for you.

Best,

~Eve

[homeboi]

Just needed to add my 3 cents..whatever it's worth..
I'm relatively new to this thread..tho I've been here long enough to have read the dynamics. It sucks being a lone dissenter. But I believe that it is a person's right to dissent. I do feel for you, Mia, that you feel attacked. But I don't see it. I think because your opinion isn't often given validation, you feel alone and attacked. It hasn't been the case..from my perspective.
"we "people"...[of the left bent]...believe with all of our hearts that war is not the answer. You believe in your heart of hearts that it is. Am I correct? It's an emotional issue upon which toes are stepped. Please try to back up a minute and reread what Eve and others have tried to tell you. I think you take differing opinions personally ergo you bristle. While it feels personal, it is not. take it how it's intended..with the best of intentions..in most cases..
Now, let's try to get back to the regularly scheduled topic..

[COLOR=green][B]peace,

[traveler]

Mia, i would like to apologize for losing my temper with you. This apology comes with a request and an addendum, which of course you can choose to ignore.

The addendum is that the next time (should there be one) you respond in a way that i, personally, find offensive, belittling, or condescending (to anyone, not just to me), i will request a time out and then repost exactly what i found offensive (and i assure you it won't be your viewpoint, you always have a right to that as you know).

The request is that you please try to post without using the words "hateful" or "anti-american" to describe ANY posters here since it is a form of name-calling and is disrespectful. If we can leave out this form of communication i think it would make everyone feel better about reading your posts.

As "mother" Eve (daughter of Stella) has said, your viewpoint is important. I just want the anger to stop or at least stop being displayed here.

Additionally, if you find something i post to be truly offensive i would like to know what it was so i can see if i am missing something in my method of communication. Repost it and tell me why it upset you, please. But the most important thing to me is that you aim your issues with me at me (or at whoever is offending you) so no one else is dragged into a conflict.

Does this sound fair to you?

[Toughy]

yes I have taken a couple of pot shots at mia......just as I have taken pot shots at Miss Pris.......and a few others around here...
and being who I am, I will continue to do so........however I rarely attack anyone.......Miss Pris usually is my prime target for an attack.......laughing.......however Miss Pris at least responds to questions and doesn't beg them or change the subject......((((((((Pris)))))))))) and trust me mia.....you have no earthly idea what a personal attack on this forum looks like......

Mia........I am NOT going to go back through all the posts here and repost my questions to you that you either answered by begging the question or just flat out ignored......you can do that....
I will simply state that you are very good at ignoring or begging the question.......I do understand your pain and your fear and your need to respond to what you experienced during your time in search and rescue post 9/11........however more violence is not going to make you feel safer in the end.......the only thing that will make you feel safer is treatment for your post traumatic stress disorder.....

I agree that Hussein is a nasty guy........I agree that the potential for the weapons he most likely possesses will fall into the hands of terrorists is high......I agree that those weapons should be destroyed......and I would very reluctantly back a military solution to getting rid of those weapons ONLY and I repeat ONLY if the UN Security Council says that war is the only way it will happen. That is the message from the protests of the last weekend.....go to war only when the UN says so......this is a world problem.....and the world will have to solve it......


do no harm, do as you will

Blessed Be......

[mia]

I said that I wasn't going to go back through the threads, but I lied I don't want to let this drag on... there really needs to be a resolution to this matter. Not only for myself, but for the political threads in this forum. This is not my home and I hope that Rhon and Chris don't feel that I've worn out my welcome here. I've grown quite fond of a great many people. I stated previously that a number of my quotes were taken out of context, and were in jest between myself and someone else....even the smiley faces were left out of a few. I must say, really didn't appreciate that. Some of them didn't need further explanation.... they were plain sarcastic.

During this entire argument, the subject of everyone's focus has been my own arrogance, sarcasm, hate-filled rhetoric and character attacks, etc. and how I need to own up to myself. I need to add, that I'm the only lone conservative poster who has the guts to post in this forum on a consistent basis.... against my better judgement sometimes. I'm going to ring my own bell on this one, and say that I apologize for my words and behavior... on a consistent basis. I don't need to have my hand held and told when to say I'm sorry in this forum. Outside of this, it amazes me at how many of you can bash me beyond belief for what comes out of my mouth, and yet have not insight into what is coming out of your own or those whom you agree with. The threads are all there. Below I've compiled a list of some of the most inflammatory ones.

The point I've been trying to make for months now, is the double standard. People have a right to form their own political opinions and state them freely. We should also have a right to express them here, which we do. Initially I expressed my offense at some of the comments being made in this forum. I was basically shouted down by the majority & was told that we all have a right to express our viewpoints & opinions. I learned to join in with the rest of you guys and I think that I've done a pretty good job.... for the lone conservative. I've really enjoyed the open dialogue with you people, even when we argued.....maybe I need to talk with my therapist about this or something. We've rarely agreed, but there's been alot of pretty good dialogue, with a few heated arguments here and there....up until the past couple of week. I also don't deny the fact that I can at times come across rather sarcastic and matter of fact..... just like many of you are guilty of. I cannot be held to a separate set of standards from the rest of you, when it comes to discussing politics. There is also a wide difference between attacking someones character as opposed to discussing political issues with sarcasm and wit....and even anger sometimes. Let's just try to avoid attacking people and their characters. Maybe we need to define or redefine what exactly this is, because now I don't even know.

Anyhow, enough of that... here's the comments in question. PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE DON'T TAKE OFFENSE IF I'VE USED YOUR COMMENTS! I'M FOND OF MOST OF YOU WHO MADE THESE! I'm only trying to prove a point here people. Think about this and let's try to come up with some ground rules so that we can all be happy with. Take it lightly people Tommy, eat your popcorn....drink a beer.... don't shoot me. This would all make good Jay Leno Material.... lol

Goodnight all. mia




"On one hand you kind of get this appeal for him..... Like he's your older fucked up brother who just wants to make everyone laughs and throws the good parties.... The bad part is. He isn't your brother. He's the president"

I am an Anti-Bush junkie! I constantly watch CNN just to see what he is fucking up next....Where as people here constantly call Bush a MORON. Amongst other nasty names I wont repeat."

"MORON! Yes, he is a moron! What is really frightening is that the moron holds the top elected (or perhaps stolen) spot in our nation."

"He's IS a moron. I wanna write a letter in support of ANYONE publically stating that. Hell, the whole WORLD thinks that and laughs at the fact that the same person who wants to "knock down the tollbooths" and "make the pie higher" is our prez, if some officials state what the rest of the world is thinking, what's the big?"

"Have ya noticed that the man who is posing as President of the United States can't say nuclear? He says nucular. And given the recent pressure being applied to Iraq, he's had to say 'nucular' a whole hell of a lot."

"Bush is dangerous. and he doesn't give a damn about any of you. he is quoted to have said on three occasions that things would be easier if the USA were a dictatorship and he were the dictator. "

"I honestly think that president Bush should be assasinated before we all get nuc'ed."

"Since 9/11 George W. has ridden on the waves of patriotism and nothing more. This is a man who has stolen the postion of President, exploited his control of the country and has not spoken one word of things that have gone on in America."

"Mia, Opinions don't need to be political. And how can I put this in terms you'll understand. I DO NOT CARE. butchybiscuit boy is right. The man should die. He should ...Telling someone to leave the hate out of their ranting. Is like asking someone to leave the passion out of their kissing. Just wont happen. We are humans with emotions. This man fucks with us daily in many different ways. Deal with it hon. I HATE GEORGE W. BUSH and I hope he dies very soon. Or atleast has a heartattack and stroke and can't control the US any longer. I hope his brothers nuts shrivel up and haunt him in his dreams every night for cheating on the florida polls. Most of all. I hope the rest of the world forgives the people of the US for allowing this man to become president.....in conclusion Mia, if you don't like whats being said. Don't read the thread."

"Hmmm. I've found this thread to be quite informative, Mia. (especially Warbirdie's posts.) I'm a fact/stats junkie so it's been great for me....It is these feelings that people are expressing here."

"Bush is a horrible president. I am embarrassed that he heads our government. I am afraid of his political motives. His motives are as far away from altruism as possible. He does not care at all about his people. He has no trouble with sacrificing and harming innocents. He lies continually. I believe he stole the election with the help of his brother. Mia, if you support this man you are very uninformed."

"it's not american, it's amerrrrrrrikin. lol"

"...The Bush cartel, or junta, I call them, is bigger than the little brain at the head, and that anyone could even attempt in any way to defend Bush's or their behavior as just political difference is way beyond me.I defend your right to say what you wish, Mia, but please not here"

"I wonder if the only reason he married Laura was because he knocked her up?"

"Gay Republicans....it seems like such an oxymoron to me. Honestly, the only ones I've ever run into were rich gay men who wanted to take advantage of white male privilege."

"Bush is an unabashed bigot when it comes to equal rights for gays and lesbians,
which, is a good reason why GAY/LESBIANS shouldn't support him."

"Basically, i think anything W. does for gays is only to save a few votes and keep the faith in those who want to believe he's not so bad. It's a very effective technique."

"Beware of propaganda from the pResident of the White House and his Administration.......they are giving lip service to being open minded and trying to find a way to kill off more gay men, women, and people of color."

"Okay, so all intelligent people agree that Bush is a moron. The real mystery is, why did y'all ELECT him? .......What is wrong with American society? "

"Conservatives have a "to-do list" which is quite short as they are only concerned about a certain populations. It is much easier to be cohesive when you're not trying to please the masses."

"Okay, so all intelligent people agree that Bush is a moron. The real mystery is, why did y'all ELECT him? You know, I honestly believe that the vast majority of US citizens are profoundly uneducated and quite possibly stupid. Unable to think critically they eagerly buy into the cult of personality believing the pretty or ugly picture depending on how well it's packaged. But then it's no accident I'm sure ... keeping the masses in the dark and unable to think clearly is a time honored method ensuring complacency and keeping power in the hands of those who 'deserve' it. At least that’s what I learned in the commie liberal college I went to "

"His mother shoulda had an abortion. "

"OMG!! I can't beleive you said that. On some level I agree... But I really don't think people should be throwing around the word abortion. Besides she's pro-life. She rather of given him up for adoption."

"And now the White House is Bush's playground. We could go round that tree for hours. LOL! They're all bad to some extent, so saying Bush gives a shit to me is completely naive."
"sorry mia, You aren't any more right than the Dubya! But i know you want to believe that.The only thing he's sitting on is a pile of shit if you ask me. And it's steaming.(OK,i admit i'm a little sick of hearing about how great and all knowing he is!)"

"you have reams and reams of "i hate evil bush" posts, 6 pages to be exact. There's only a teenie, tiny bit of "he's not that bad" posts and they're all from me. <mia digs around in her granny purse and pulls out a hankie for traveler>"

"The difference between hate and criticism. We are criticizing. You see it only as hate because you like him. It's your bias as you've mentioned before. I think the evidence pretty much stands on its own. You seem incredibly defensive about anyone saying anything bad about him. Something tells me you'll get used to it eventually.<throwig the hankie back> Let's not get personal, Mia!"

"Mia you have missed your calling. Drama. But, you can't have it both ways. GWB aka Shrub is not sitting on any secret information. That idiot. And if it were secret how can you spew it out as if you know. You poor kids on the right are spoon fed the party line so much that you think you know it, when all it ever was, was rhetoric. ALSO, by admiting that GWB aka SHrub knows some secret, you are admitting that it is not common knowledge nor is it any knowledge that can be known by any of the five senses of human sentience."

"....Some of the stuff he did and says the others did is absolutely appalling. Not to mention, he talks about how Newt Gingrich and many of the others who tried to get Clinton for Lewinsky ALL had women on the side themselves. Again, why all the hippocrisy?? They talk about family values but don't live it."

"No matter what anyone attempts to say 9/11 happened during Bush's watch, actually while the idiot was reading to school children in Fla. What a primo a*****e!"

"Imangine how I feel---I'm from Texas, the state that made him Governor and, as if that wasn't enough, we (collectively) backed him for the Presidency...*slapping My forehead*...I must be living in a state filled with mostly morons...thank gawwwd I am moving to the Bay Area---SOON..."

"I am a patriot at heart and I hate to see this country of ours be controlled by a bunch of idiots, and that isn't limited to just the Presidency, it is every idiot that claims to be on the side of the right and decency."

"He has not duped me. He is not a great leader. He does not care about the American people or the people in the world as a whole. He just wants power. To make a name for himself. To control oil.....He has no concern about the terrible consequences of his imperial goals. Who dies, what parts of the world are destroyed is of no consequence to him."

"He does not truly care about those who died in the twin towers, only that he can use the tragedy to whip up a fervor of misguided patriotism and warlust.
He has no interest in freedom...He has taken more freedoms from us than he has protected. Security--sure, we all go to bed at night feeling incredibly secure that he has managed to trick the congress into granting him the power to reek whatever havoc he so desires. And we are secure in the knowledge that our neighbors can falsely "tip off" the government regarding our "terrorist" activities without consequence.He is a fanatic and there are no longer the appropriate checks and balances to modify his insane conquest. I personally put GW in a similar category as Hitler (cult of personality, inspiring blind patriotism, limiting intellectual freedoms, funneling the public’s hatreds into new enemies, creating ways to detain people without reason or counsel…)"

""If the Republicans will stop lying about us, we Democrats will stop telling the truth about them."

"I think there are a lot of parallels between Hitler and Bush. The level of intelligence, however, is not equal. I read part of Mein Kampf (English translation, of course) for an anthropology class and i'd have to say he can actually form sentences on his own--no teleprompter needed. Other than that, there are a few too many similarities for me."

"Loving this thread and happy to see so many not willing to kiss the ass of the Bush Admin and it's propaganda."
You guys (Rightos) are totally insane, you all talk like you just had lunch or a conference with the Idiot in the whitehouse and they, Cheney, Rove, Rumsfield briefed you. My god, this is the purest form of madness I've beheld.

"Post-traumatic stress disorder, oil price shock, off-shore factories, Ground Zero - all prices we have paid for our ignorance and brashness."

"Drunken frat boy drives country into ditch."

"What I think of Bush is quite simple. He is a real life Sauron (form Tolkien's Lord of the Rings), a resurrected Hitler kind-of-type, who excells in stupidity and tough wording, who in the name of a battle against terrorism aims at achieving his secret agenda: acquiring more oil sources in the Middle East (wasn't he active in the oil business before becoming president?) and multiplying the incomes of the arms industry, the real power behind this little man.....George Bush is a disgrace for the US and the human race. His mentality, shared by many Americans...is what should by countered by common sense.

"Yup, Bush is the Anti-Christ!! no question about it."

"The difference is that Bush has no ability to think beyond the oil greed and his bible belt friends--he has no foresight, barely a brain and likes to play the big tough cow boy too much."

"And yes, if it were Clinton or anybody else who has at least normal intelligence or above I would trust their decision more."

".....It shows clearly, imo, how forcefully we in America are being bombarded with the Bush admin war propaganda.

"Bush is an idiot, who likes to execute poor people instead of helping to build a country where people don’t have a reason to steal anymore. "

"the conservative republicans and the current administration are hell-bent on destroying the peace and doing unbelievable damage to the planet the Mother entrusted us to protect and care for"

"Why am I not surprised you <referring to mia> didn't get the connection? Let me spell it out for you.....you can't see the forest for the trees....Get over yourself."

"she can't get over herself <referring to mia> cuz we're all wrong and she's right! LOL! There's no winning an argument when someone wants to say what she says is all unbiased and not hateful and what we say is both of those."

"People who see it as hate generally are the ones more prone to hate in the first place i think <refering to mia> He's not an intelligent human being. Period. One day history will record him as a "self-centered git,"

"mia, Why don't we all just agree, that you will never think anyone else's way of thinking, if it differs from yours, is right."

"Mia, most of us here have resigned ourselves to the fact that you will never see anything but your own narrow, holier-than-thou fear- and hatred-based point of view. When the difficult questions are asked, you resort to brevity and change the subject. I, for one, have given up trying to get you to see any other point of view and have simply begun praying for you."

[SynicalOne]

Just to take the "edge" off the board for a minute, I toss out a little curveball.** The climate of our world is changing, and I don't like it one bit.
It really saddends me, that my two nephews (11 and 14), are very frightened, thinking about current events. I understand that, because of the questions they ask: "well, can they hit us with nukes", "well, what if something happens when we're at school", or "what if something happens in Atlantic City" (where mom and dad are).
I'm 46, and I remember those little air raid drills we had, when I was in elementary school. We thought it was total fun; crawling under the desks. Clueless. But my generation didn't grow up with fear, didn't really know fear. Until now, I guess.


** for those femme's that don't know what a curveball is: it's a baseball related term. It's a "hard to hit" pitch. lolllllllll

[Toughy]

mia.....I respect the fact that you choose to be the 'lone voice'......in my life as an activist I have been the 'lone voice' more times than I care to remember.....however the big difference between you and me, is that I own up to my own bias and my own statements.....and to the fact that some views other than mine DO have merit.........I have more than once in this tread agreed with certain parts of your beliefs....you have NEVER given ANY credence to any other point of view than your own and that of the pResident.......that is what has all of us bothered and what is the point of this everlasting pissing contest.......all any of us want to hear from you is that, at the least, some parts of our beliefs have validity.......just as, as least me, has given vailidity to certain parts of your belief system.......to certain parts of your core values......you, on the other hand.......you have given NO credence, no respect, no understanding that, even though, our core values may be different....they are no less valid.....

Understanding of differences is the key to peace.......violence is not.......

[tattooedturtle]

In all fairness to Mia, she did just apologize to me last night, and she also admitted to me in an earlier post that there could be post-war ramifications that we don't want in response to a post I posted about those ramifications. Mia and I have not really quarrelled though, so that makes a difference I think.

Traveler's suggestions sound awfully good to me. I think all of us actually could benefit by them.

Now, Mia, I mean this with all due respect. I read through that list, and while some of it was harsh, hateful, and disrespectful, it appears to me that most of it was directed toward Bush, not you. There were a few statements directed toward you, or making a generalization that you could take offense at, but the majority of it was not attacking you at all. Do you consider it a personal attack when someone denounces Bush? Or were you trying to make another point that I'm not getting?

I think one big problem is that some stuff that has been said in other threads has kinda bled its way in here. That's a shame too, cause this could be a very enlightening and productive thread if we could do it in a more respectful way.

[honeybarbara]

Actually that's my question tattoo...

Where I come from, we make fun of all our poltical heads... one show called "this hour has 22 min" reams politcal heads and buisness heads over hot coals. Things like "Mulrooney is a tool. A Canadians readers guide" and the priminister even gets together with them to *help* them make fun of him and mock him. Hideously!!! I mean *really* seriously mocking his intellect. And you know what? They all split a gut over it. Joe Clark has been called a "fart" to his face on the show. Something I never see US presidents doing... but then our political heads don' have body guards either... one thing though that we know... insulting our priminister is not insulting canadians.

If you have a problem with Cretien, take your best shot. Cretrien is not me. Cretien is not canada. The only thing Cretien is, is someone elected to take care of certain aspects of canadian politics internationally and cross-nationally. That's it. That's all he is. That's as far as it goes.

I guess I really don't understand how insulting HRH GWBush is insulting you personally, mia... I just don't get it. You can make fun of communists (and so can I, even though I'm a socialist but hey I can take I joke) but to insult President bush is a big no no? You must not like Canucks then... the aide that called bush a moron never apologuised nor did Mr.Cretrien want her removed from her position. No Canadian cared. We figured it was about time someone said it outloud. Trudeau called nixon an asshole. Nixon called trudeau waaaaaaaaaaaay worse things...

So could you explain this to me? I'm serious. I really don't understand how insulting, mocking and hating politcal heads is something that one should take personally. over half of your quotes of being insulted was not actually directed at you, but directed at Bush (ok I totally understand being pissed at the ones directed at you... but bush?) Honestly I don't get it. I'm serious in asking why it's so insulting to you personally that people hate bush. Can you tell me why? I'm honestly baffled and sincerely want to know.

[traveler]

You know i really want to stay away from responding at all because i believe it will hinder more than help, but i have to say i have one big point of disagreement with Toughy on that last post. Mia's complaints seem to mostly be centered around us saying bad things about the president. Her quotes are almost all posts made about georgie. On the other hand, almost all of the people i have seen complaining about Mia are having a problem with the way she speaks to and about US (meaning the community members posting in the political threads). That to me is the real problem. I don't care if Mia never agrees with me or gives me credence. That's fine. She doesn't agree and i can live with that. But i do want her to stop calling the left anti-American and hateful just because we think Bush is an idiot. (Except for HoneyBarb who is fine with that. LOL! Tip of the hat to HB!)

Yes, i said it again and you may keep quoting me, Mia, because i will not stop "attacking" a man i have no respect for and is in the public light--public service, no less. This gives me the right to criticize and even assassinate his character since his character is of relevance in the running of this country. I will, however, never criticize you on a personal level, as in call you names or put down your character. If you continue to say "we" (as in the people you disagree with) are hateful or anti-American, you ARE attacking our characters. So under that definition, i suppose i am "attacking" your friend, George.

Well, sorry, but i think he's the worst president ever and i will continue to say that and oh so much more. I won't change my fundamental belief when i post simply to make you feel better about him or our country. Having your idol attacked does not give you the right to attack us on a personal level. You can crack on Clinton as much as you want and you will never see me say you have no right to do it or even complain about you attacking his character. Like someone else said (i forget who), why should i care what you think of him??

Feel free to call me on "attacks" against you, though. I have no problem being upbraided for rudeness to my fellow community members. I never TRY to hurt people unless they have hurt me first. One day i will be perfect and able to avoid this tendency to react in kind.

Thanks to all of you who continue to post here. And Eve and Emma, i do hope you both change your minds.



And, Turtle, i have to admit, i only consider about 2 of those statements truly hateful so perhaps we all have different definitions of that word. That's another thing we all need to be flexible on: common definitions. I see this problem all the time in the identity threads. I think definitions vary for many people.


It was a very polite post, though, Mia. Thank you!

[tattooedturtle]

And, Turtle, i have to admit, i only consider about 2 of those statements truly hateful so perhaps we all have different definitions of that word. That's another thing we all need to be flexible on: common definitions. I see this problem all the time in the identity threads. I think definitions vary for many people.

Excellent point, Traveler! And what offends one person may not offend another at all. This is what happens when we all come from this melting pot of diverseness called the good ole USA...LOL

[tattooedturtle]

Let me correct that last statement in my former post. This is what happens when we live in a world of diverseness....

(Forgive me, HB, and anyone out of the U.S. who is reading)

[butchbiscuit]

when is mr. c gonna actually decide yes or no???
i thought the answer was no yesterday, not without the support of the UN...
then today i heard the sound of the canadian waffle iron heating up and some maple syrup being readied...

bb > just say NO!

[Tobatia]

Traveler, you were right, I don't manage to stay out of here

I can't avoid it. I think a lot about his war, because
1) everybody does due to permanent media presence
2) I live in Israel and this war is a direct threat to the country I choose to live in (temporarily) and the daily reminders (the gas mask lying on the fridge; the list with "what to do in case of an attack and how to seal a room"-manual sticking at the side of the fridge; the many signs showing the way to the next bomb shelter all over the place, which were put up during the past few days; the friend who goes to get a gas mask for his baby which will be born any day now;.....)
3) I am German and the many comparsions to Germany's history get to me (things like Hussein = Hitler; this war will start WWIII;...)
4) I belong to the many Europeans who don't like the self-given role of the USA as the world police.

I don't think a war against Iraq can be justified right now. Not because the UN didn't bring enough proof for a wrong doing of Iraq. According to the UN it is Iraq's duty to cooperate and proof that they distroyed the weapons and non-conventional warfare they had (and that the UN knew of), not the UN's duty to find what the Iraqi gov't is hiding. But Iraq didn't do it, Iraq did not cooperate in a satisfying degree. Therefore the UN might declare the resolution as not fullfilled and there would be a certain "right" to attack.

But does a country or even a group of countries really have the right to atack another country, because it might be a danger? (It kind of reminds me of my sister and me as kids. When we started fighting I often began yelling before she hit me, preventively, 'cause I KNEW she would be hitting me....)

"Preventive" strikes are a legal problem. And a moral problem. When Israel's army started with the "preventive execution" of suspected palestinian militants, they were damned, called war criminals, and there was talk of bringing Sharon, other members of the Israeli gov't, and high army representatives before an international court. The Israelis argued that they would safe lives with this methond. Because of this preventive executions, there would be less terror attacks and thus also less retaliation strikes (which usually cost the lives of civilians). Perhaps they are right, perhaps killing someone who might do wrong does safe lives. But nobody knows. And I personally can't agree to killing on the basis of a "perhaps" .

Now some of the countries who damned Israel's preventive executions agree to do something similar, under the leadership of the US gov't, represented by Bush. He (and his supporters) want to start a war, want to kill, based on the hope that it will at the end mean less dead? Or perhaps only less dead US americans? Because a war against Iraq will mean many casualities among civilians, Iraqi civilians. Many war scenarios predict a "burning of the middle east", an involvement of Iran, Saudi-Arabia, Syria, Jordan, Israel....and the use of non-conventional weapons by several countries. This would probably cost more lives than the few non-conventional weapons that could reach North America, which Hussein would perhaps be able to produce in his life time (that shit is damn expensive and complicated to produce, so he would not be able to make many!).

So perhaps the world's political leaders should search for a possiblity to avoid a war, to avoid killing thousands of civilians, and to eliminate Hussein and his supporters? In my opinion, this measure could be justified, would not be a legal and moral dilemma as a preventive strike, because he commited crimes, killed thousands of people in his own country.

I cannot imagine that the intelligence of all our countries are able to know exactly what who is doing, but are not able to eliminate Saddam Hussein and his closest supporters. So why does it not happen? Perhaps because it is easier to control a country after a war, when it is even more destabilized, demoralized and for survival dependent on the help of the former enemies? Who would gain from such a control? Everyone who is interested in oil. So does everything come down to economics after all?

Tobatia

[Tobatia]

I am not good in making connections and the post was already long enough, so I thought I just write another one... *g*

SynicalOne, you brought the fear topic up, the change of the worlds atmosphere. I can only partially agree to this, I believe that the fear is increasing in the US, that kids are more aware, fearful aware, of political issues. But I think fear is anyhow something very much pushed in the US, used as a trigger, used to manipulate - by companies to sell there products, by politicians to sell their politics.... Do you know this movie/documentary about weapons and weapon control in the US? Bowling for Columbine. Very interesting point is made there about exactly this topic, about the usage of fear...

I cannot see the same fear, and especially not the same degree of fear, anywhere else. Not in Germany, not in Austria, not in Israel (those are the countries I can really talk about). Children in Germany/Austria seem not to be more scared by those political issues, nuclear attacks, etc, then I was as a kid. Ok, I am younger than you, but still closer to your age than to the kids from today. And here in Israel it is anyhow different. Kids learn in kindergarten how to use Gasmasks and what to do in case of a bomb alarm. But its just that. They seem not to be scared, nobody tries to scare them. Its calm, its part of life (or hopefully not), but nothing to push more than necessary. I think the fear issue is a typical US issue, and I would be curious to learn where it originates.

HoneyBarb, I really liked your statement that your PM is not your country and not the people! I think the same, and I am glad that I do think this way, because otherwise I would have to deny being German! (Our Primeminister became politician because he wanted to see himself in TV and wasn't good enough to become and actor).

And one more sidenote, which came to me partially because of the word "double standards". Many statements made in this thread (by right wing people as well as left wing) would have brought the lable "neo nazi" to the speaker, would they be Germans. I experienced people being called neonazi because they said that they are proud to be Germans.
Not only reading this thread, but also in other political discussions with US americans, I got the impression that the patriotism in the USA is pretty close to nationalism. And those two are pretty different things (despite what many people think).

pa·tri·ot·ism
Pronunciation: 'pA-trE-&-"ti-z&m, chiefly British 'pa-
Function: noun
Date: circa 1726
: love for or devotion to one's country


na·tion·al·ism
Pronunciation: 'nash-n&-"li-z&m, 'na-sh&-n&l-"i-z&m
Function: noun
Date: 1844
: loyalty and devotion to a nation; especially : a sense of national consciousness exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations or supranational groups

Tobatia
(who swore not to enter this thread)

[Eve]

Thanks for pointing out the difference between patriotism and nationalism!

Such an important point.

~Eve (brief, if not the soul of wit)

[David]

To contemplate war is to think about the most horrible of human experiences. On this February day, as this nation stands at the brink of battle, every American on some level must be contemplating the horrors of war. Yet, this Chamber is, for the most part, silent -- ominously, dreadfully silent. There is no debate, no discussion, no attempt to lay out for the nation the pros and cons of this particular war. There is nothing. We stand passively mute in the United States Senate, paralyzed by our own uncertainty, seemingly stunned by the sheer turmoil of events. Only on the editorial pages of our newspapers is there much substantive discussion of the prudence or imprudence of engaging in this particular war.


And this is no small conflagration we contemplate. This is no simple attempt to defang a villain. No. This coming battle, if it materializes, represents a turning point in U.S. foreign policy and possibly a turning point in the recent history of the world. This nation is about to embark upon the first test of a revolutionary doctrine applied in an extraordinary way at an unfortunate time. The doctrine of preemption -- the idea that the United States or any other nation can legitimately attack a nation that is not imminently threatening but may be threatening in the future -- is a radical new twist on the traditional idea of self defense. It appears to be in contravention of international law and the UN Charter. And it is being tested at a time of world-wide terrorism, making many countries around the globe wonder if they will soon be on our -- or some other nation's -- hit list.

[Toughy]

Senator Byrd is one of a dying breed of true orators and constitutional scholars..........it will be a damn shame when he leaves the Senate.....

This was a great speech!!!!!!!!!!! AND he voted against giving the pResident the authority to wage war on Iraq........

[traveler]

Here is a site that seems to have the primary goal of helping Iraq. It has information on people from Iraq trying to make it a democratic nation:

http://www.iraqfoundation.org/

I do not agree with a few of the articles on why there should be war, but at least they were written by people FROM Iraq and not outsiders.

After reading the editorial by Zainab Al-Suwaij, i think to him it comes down to the question do you think war will help the Iraqis more than hurt them? My question is a little broader: do i think the fallout (affecting everyone, not just Iraq) is worth a war?

So while i get his view that Iraqis want the freedom to choose their own destiny, they are far from the only people affected by a possible war.

I once read a book called Inner Circle (i think) and it talked about how people tend to think in a heirarchy of concerns: themselves, their families, their communities, their countries, finally the world. Personally, i would rather try to always keep that bigger picture in mind at all times. My family is important, but there's a huge world out there with a whole lot of other families who are important too.

[Toughy]

Subject: Join me in a Virtual March on Washington

Please join me NOW in registering for a Virtual March on Washington for February 26th. We are asking Congress to stop the Bush administration's rush to war, and to Let the Inspections Work.

Time is running out.

With your help, on February 26th, every Senate office will receive
a call EVERY MINUTE from a constituent, as they receive a
simultaneous crush of faxes and email. In New York and Washington D.C., "antiwar rooms" will highlight the progress of the day for national media. Local media will visit the "antiwar room" online, to monitor this constituent march throughout the day.

With your help, every Senate office switchboard will be lit up all
day with our antiwar messages. This will be a powerful reminder
of the bread and depth of opposition to a war in Iraq.

Just go to:

http://www.moveon.org/winwithoutwar/

Please join me and sign up today. This has never been done
before. Let's be part of it.

[Toughy]

point taken Traveler.........

I should have not used "we"..........I do not speak for all of us....I only speak for me.......

[David]

Hope we fill empty congressional seats with more progressive individuals like Byrd in the future!

Can we ban idiots from taking the Presidential seat again?

I'd like to vote for George W. Bush for Ex President in 2004.

[honeybarbara]

BB!!! oh god that's what happens when I miss reading CBC news deliverd to my inbox. I miss it *one* fuckin day and the Big C is WAFFELING...

please no...

I thought he was going to be the first PM is eons to actually stand up to the US gov't... *sob*

last night on "This hour has 22min" I watched a great piece on "I Know They Are Our Neighbours But Doncha Wanna Just Give Em a Good Smack?" where they said "Trudeau once famously likened canuck-yank relations as a mouse living next to an elephant. Well... it's about time this stopped. Mulrooney thought he could beat this game by trying to influence the states by the *inside* and becomeing 'friends' with the US president... he trying influencing the elephant by trying to cram the mouse up inside the elephant as far as he could... (fisting motion).... but that didn't work... it's time we realized that the US is not an elephant because elephants never forget and we all know the US govt has a problem with 'forgetting' things... "

I for one would absolutely love our gov't to fuckin grow a spine one day. I know people are getting more and more pissed off with how much we flex for the states... when I worked in Metrotown this christmas I have *never* heard more anti-american sentiment than I did this year. People are getting really pissed off.

(Sorry peeps... I know this must be hard to read... but sometimes I think it's important to tell what's going on in our yard...).

I think Da big C, if he stood up and said "No. We got enough problems right now in our own economy, we will only go to war if the UN backs it" would get MOUNDS of support for actually saying no to the US. I know my respect for Mr.C would shoot up a hundredfold. One day Canada is going to say no to the states gov't and I hope it's soon. They have been really pissing me off with all the border crap they are pulling... body searching our MPs who are of middle eastern decent and keeping them in "containment" for six bloody hours! being trigger happy and bombing an entire brigade of ours and killing them out on manouver (oh oops sorry bout that... we didn't check)-- of course only admitting to this after months of international court investigation... it's starting to get under my skin.

The soft wood lumber tarriffs, the pressure for privetization, the insane ammount of pressure HRH Bush is making on Mr.C to buy armaments (thank god he said no and keeps saying no to that one... we need the money for the kyoto accord and the health plan improvements).... I'm crossin my fingers biscuit... I really am...

[tattooedturtle]

I go to work and get home to find oodles and oodles of good info in here! Thanks everyone. I'm checking out the links now. And Tobatia, I really loved those definitions!

I'm an American patriot...::::doing a little turtle dance::::...I knew I was....:::dancing around::::...what dictionary did you get that from? LOLLLL

[tattooedturtle]

I for one would absolutely love our gov't to fuckin grow a spine one day. I know people are getting more and more pissed off with how much we flex for the states... when I worked in Metrotown this christmas I have *never* heard more anti-american sentiment than I did this year. People are getting really pissed off.

(Sorry peeps... I know this must be hard to read... but sometimes I think it's important to tell what's going on in our yard...).

HB, I'm glad you posted what you did. Thank you! More Americans need to hear exactly this kind of stuff. It paves the way to eyes being opened. And maybe as eyes are opened America as a whole will start thinking more globally about actions and consequences, and how it affects the world.

[dragnffly]

Rhetoric aside, all I know is that this is a BAD IDEA. There is virtually no international support for this action. Sure, a war with Iraq will boost our economy, which is sorely needed at this point. Sure, it's probably more about economics and oil anyway....It's just that nothing justifies death & destruction. 9/11 aside, we as a country have no idea how awful war, military action, whatever you want to call it, is. Personally, I am very very scared of Bush & his administration. Whenever there is a proponderance of republicans elected I always think I want to move to Canada!

[tattooedturtle]

I can't avoid it. I think a lot about his war, because
1) everybody does due to permanent media presence
2) I live in Israel and this war is a direct threat to the country I choose to live in (temporarily) and the daily reminders (the gas mask lying on the fridge; the list with "what to do in case of an attack and how to seal a room"-manual sticking at the side of the fridge; the many signs showing the way to the next bomb shelter all over the place, which were put up during the past few days; the friend who goes to get a gas mask for his baby which will be born any day now;.....)
3) I am German and the many comparsions to Germany's history get to me (things like Hussein = Hitler; this war will start WWIII;...)
4) I belong to the many Europeans who don't like the self-given role of the USA as the world police.

Tobatia, I'm glad that you too shared your daily reminders. That is why I am against this war which is such a direct threat to many now and may be so for even others later on. It saddens me that it is the actions of my country that is placing you and others in such precarious positions. I'm hoping everyone of us here in the U.S. and in other countries can stay strong and stop this thing from happening.

It's interesting because I've heard it said more than once that GWB is another Hitler. Makes me a bit uneasy.....

I'm thinking that the more peeps become aware of how individuals in other countries feel, it may help stop this policing thing that the U.S. does, but I dunno. It's gonna take some change for sure. And maybe WMD disarmament of all countries, which I'm very much for.