historical significance - fact or fiction?

[tori]

a recurring theme to my historically-minded posts has been the response that "it doesn't matter what happened in the past".

across the board, i think it does. yes, i also like to contemplate it just for the hell of it, as it is mildly more interesting than my bellybutton, which i have stopped contemplating because its altered state offends me. anyway, i really do think that a full knowledge of the whys and wherefores of what has come before is essential to understanding who we are, which is basic to progress and self-driven evolution. to simply say something is ‘bad’ without an understanding of how and why it developed is shortsighted. history is not an excuse, but it is a reason, and to dismiss it is folly.

many people are mistaken in thinking that knowledge and understanding is the same as tolerance. as an example … historical slavery (not specifically the african variety, we have all been slaves at some point) had roots in economic and social need, as well as in a true belief of the oppressors that they were superior to whomever they chose to enslave. truly understanding this opens the mind for a) forgiveness and b) healing and c) moving beyond the ‘demonization’ of ‘other’ and recognizing the common thread of humanity that ties us all together. it does not mean to say that it was ‘ok’. it does mean to know that such circumstances occur that might make you do things you would never conceive of, were you born in a different time or place. we like to think that we are so damn evolved that our very spirit would fight against any such injustice, but the history of humanity tells us otherwise.

so, i suppose i have started this thread in order to ask the question: am i alone in this viewpoint? do so many really believe that ‘it does not matter’?

~tori

[L.A. Femme]

I agree Tori.... history is absolutely important and if we don't learn from it we are destined to repeat our past mistakes.

[butchbiscuit]

i believe it matters too...

bb

[audacious1]

Excellent food for thought, tori. Couscous for the mind, you might say.

The issues tori raises here cover a broad spectrum of scale. From large scale global, national issues (oppression, war and famine) to the microcosm of relationships. The well-known saying:

Those who do not learn the lessons of history are destined to repeat them

rings true on all these levels. Just as we learn to look deep into our past during therapy in order to gain understanding we must do so in other aspects of life. Once we understand we can move toward acceptance, and as tori stated, we evolve.

As tori stated, understanding and acceptance are not the same as tolerance, but they can place us in a more open frame of mind to really LISTEN and assess. Then perhaps we can find forgiveness, tolerance and healing.

In the words of Karl Marx History repeats itself, first as tragedy, second as farce.

We can avoid farce by understanding the tragedy.

[princessakittygirl w/meow]

without understanding the past..we will repeat it..um has that already been said?..its so true..ive gone over the same ground..quite a few times..finally realizing why..but the self examination can end up making us scream in the other directions..heartsick over all the wasted time, and happiness we let fretter through our fingers...but all is not lost..

meow *was here*

damn it Aud1..you are sooooo smart..and sooooooo much quicker than i am...lol..(6)

[tori]

princessa - i was speaking, truly, on a worldwide, beginning of time scale, not the personal one.

but, since you've gone down that road ...

yes, we repeat our own personal history, as well. usually, because we really didn't 'get it' the first (10) times. i don't see it as wasted time, though. not ever. if i learn or experience something new, it is not wasted. yes, even if it is a terrible thing, it still becomes part of who i am, and i love who i am, so i love the value of each experience. of course, i also think this value applies to the larger scale humanity thing, too.

[tori]

ok, you know i love you guys, but i was also looking for some folks who disagree with this. i know that they are out there, because (as i mentioned), i got this reponse on a number of occasions on these forums.

so ... don't be shy :)

[svairini]

i think it's difficult to ever have a "full knowledge" of history. our citations of history and which aspects we choose to emphasize are always selective.

the example you cite is a prime one. i have heard it used very very often as an excuse: "every culture has had slavery in the past, therefore what america did was not so bad, therefore why can't you (i.e. african americans) just get over it?"

that kind of simplified version of history, with an emphasis on "forgiveness" and "healing" over remembering and witnessing, ignores the recent history & the ongoing IMPACT of slavery. (contrast it with how the nazi holocaust is memorialized: "Never Forget.") many feel there can be no forgiveness without admission of wrongdoing, without reparations, and without people examining their own & their ancestors' wrongdoing and *geniunely* asking for forgiveness.

i am not saying that you, tori, are guilty of this misuse of history. i am saying that "history" is always cited selectively, to prove an agenda in the present. so, no, i can't agree with your statement that "history matters" without knowing what exactly we are talking about, and whose history we are choosing to decide "matters."

[tori]

svairini - yes, history - with its revisions and ommisions - can be misused.

one of my favorite history professors was fond of pointing out that there is no such thing as "H"istory, only "h"isotry. it is subjective and slanted and flavored, as it is touched by humans.

thank you for exempting me from the masses, btw.

i don't think anybody should just 'get over it' (though i really like that song), but i do think that the path of knowledge->understanding->remembering->grieving->forgiving->moving on, is one that should be taken by all of us, regardless of the severity or recentness of our pain.

as an aside, i have looked at the slave v holocaust thing in my head a lot, and wondered why such disparity exists. i have come to the conclusion that the jews feel more frightened by what happened because of when it happened. mass media and communication existed, people routinely travelled the world. nobody could claim ignorance, nobody could claim economic necessity, yet people still did nothing. to feel that invisible (as you must know) must make you want to scream until you have no voice left.

i am not, in any way, shape or form, quantifying people's pain or oppression. that, to me, isn't even possible, for a million reasons. i am, once again, seeking knowledge and understanding.

[DScout]

I totaly disagree....

I think that it is not "ok" just because of the history attached to "it", and "it" is whatever. History does not repeat itself.

PEOPLE just repeat the same stoopid mistakes....day after day, year after year. decade after decade. And it is all because of our reasoning powers. We "think" we should learn from our mistakes, the reasons we made those mistakes and the reasons we "can't see the light". We just dont get it.

SO we set up the situations that evolve into history. War is , also, an example. This deal of the English/french/spanish (in whatever order) conquoring america. Look at what they did to "America". They wiped out (almost) a indegenous people (the american indian) just because they were doing what "historicly", had been done by conquoring armies in europe for thousands of years. That was mankind repeating the mistakes of yesteryears. Do you think they cared??? Not for one second...because we just dont get it. Then the Jews, then the vietnameese, then the bosnians, then the .... we are probably going to be next..oops we were also included with the jews in WW II.

The points I am trying to make is that :

History does not repeat itself...men repeat their own mistakes that is taken as "history". It is the greed of man that has driven the history machines. MAN!

;)
DS

(does this make sense to anyone, but me???) LOL

[tori]

yes, it makes sense.

it is the 'things' we do that make history, though. outside of continental shifts, and other physical, natural events - we are it. so, really ... i don't think you're disagreeing with me.

if we paid attention to history (i.e. the things we've done in the past), and weren't so arrogant about it, we would no longer keep doing the same things over and over.

the arrogance, btw, is what allows us to think that we are justified, where our forebears were not.

[DScout]

What can I possibly say to engage you in verbal volleyball??? I say, "No, Tori, I am disagreeing with you !" hehehehehe

;)
DS

[MsMissy]

Anybody up for a little revisionist history? Happening right here and now, courtesy of our present commander in chief?

[audacious1]

I loves me some revisionist history! So entertaining...

Now, let me see if I understand how it works:

Revisionist history is when we couldn't possibly be making the same mistake again, because we never made it in the first place...?

Is that it?

Anyone?




*spikin it over the net*

[tori]

right, audy. because the people making the history were hatched yesterday, and are as pure as virgins. even if they are proven, after the fact, to be wrong, horrid, heinous and disregarding of life - it won't be their fault, because they didn't have the facts, somebody else did it, or they didn't know it was happening in the first place.

my daughter could probably be president. her mantra since she was 3 has been "i forgot. i'm sorry. it wasn't my fault."

[MsMissy]

Right on! Don't you love the revisionists? But what amazes me more than the revisionists, are the people who lived through it and so quickly forgot how it all went down.

Shall we call them sheep? Lemmings?

[crash]

History does matter but can anyone say that it does not repeat itself? The themes are recuring and it's all about power with a little humane progress added in to keep the masses believing that we are evolving and becoming more civilized to one another as groups and individuals.

We all know that history is not accurately written but how do we discern what is true? <shrugs>


crash 2.0