Butches vs Femmes

[butchstilgar]

I was faced with a situation recently, that had me questioning if there is a line drawn for butches, that is not drawn for femmes, when it comes to flirting?

Personally, I believe there is. The reason for that belief is this; My femme and I went to a party recently, where people were drinking, dancing and having a good time. The femmes were flirting, kissing and grabbing a***s, that did not belong to their butch. Now, according to my femme and other femmes at the same party, it was just having fun and didn't mean anything.

Here's the line thing I mentioned; I was drinking and having a good time, and there was another femme who was flirting and dancing with alot of other butches in the place, she was hugging kissing and dancing provocatively with myself and the others. My femme saw this and had a fit. When I told her it was nothing and wasn't any different than what she was doing with the other butches in the place......thus my point, I believe the line is there, my girl does not, help me out here guys, what do you think?

[tori]

i am of the firm belief that what is good for the goose is good for the gander.

however, in the name of peacekeeping ... these are items that should be negotiated and discussed between 2 people before the situation presents itself.

bah ... i should probably steer clear of these conversations ...

[Redgypsie80]

I may get drug through the coals on this one, but it's just my opinion, not all femmes think this way I'm sure.

I am a femme. I am a flirt, a huge flirt. It's part of my nature, I don't even notice it sometimes. Generally I tend to flirt more with other femmes than I do other butches, regardless of whether I'm single or not. It's just a little bit of femme appreciation, mutual admiration for my femme sisters. The flirting means nothing to me, I would never act on any of it. I don't flirt with other butches besides my own. I play around with my friends, but it in no way could be taken out of context. I don't flirt with strangers because they don't know me, and they don't know how I interact with others (read: flirting).

Now on the other hand I can be a jealous person, and if I feel that my butch is flirting excessively with another femme...yes I get upset. Can't help it. I've never had this problem with my current partner. Hy is very respectful of me as I am of Hym. I know when I need to tone down the flirting if Hy is feeling uncomfortable.

But what is upsetting, which may have been where your grrl was coming from, is when another femme flirts with your butch. Especially if they have seen you together or know that you are partners. That is a major slap in the face to me. I get very territorial (sp?) in that situation. And I've been known to "mark my territory" by going up and grabbing my butch's ass or giving Hym a nice big kiss in front of her.

It's basically a respect issue for me. If I feel that I'm being disrespected openly I get angry and do something about it. I'm not a redneck, I don't start fights or whatever, I just make it known that "this is my butch, hands off".

Flirting by either butches or femmes is fine as long as it's done respectively. Yes there does seem to be a thinner line for femmes than there is for butches. I'm not sure why, but it just seems that way to me. I do feel a little pang of jealousy when I see my butch flirting with another femme, but usually I can handle that...I know who Hy is going home with at the end of the night. And yeah I may joke about it with Hym, but I'm not angry and being able to control that jealousy is vital for a relationship. It kinda becomes a trust issue at that point.

{butchstilgar} Talk to your grrl about this...both of you should have the opportunity to voice your opinions about the amount of flirting that is acceptable for each of you. GOOD LUCK!!

~Red~

[deedarino]

ok butchy,

you know my views on this, but let me just say....

there is nothing wrong with flirting I just think that partners need to find out where the line is for both sides. I also think that alot of the time the person that is being flirted with makes justifications and maybe lets too much go because, lets face it, we all love to be flirted with. I myself, love to flirt and mixed with alcohol, the lines do get blurry. As long as your partner knows that it is harmless flirting ahead of time and not a pick up, it is ok. I also feel that there are lines with both femmes and butches that are personal.

I also think that some femmes get a kick out of "winning" the attention of a "taken" butch. I am not really sure why but it happens alot, even in the hetero world. We girls are kinda mean to each other.

It comes down to respect really.

[elemental]

I think that it comes down to issues of security and validation.

If a person is secure in their monogamous relationship then flirting (by either partner) is certainly not a threat to what two people have built together. If a person is getting validation from their same gender peer group, then another butch or femme being appreciated by the partner can't be a threat either.

But maybe this is a difference in world view. Personally, I live from abundance not lack - meaning that there is more than enough "good stuff" like attention or love to go around. If someone is the recipient of "good stuff" (from anyone including one of my partners), it doesn't mean that there is less for me or that something is taken from me. A lot of people believe in limitation on some level...and that is the source of competiton. I don't buy into that.

[DrBombay]

I agree with some of what Elemental wrote--coming from abundence, etc; however, if you have a girlfriend why on earth would you 'dance provacatively' with another femme, and hug and kiss her? That kind of behavior has nothing to do with abundence per se--it's about choices--and it seems like you hugging and kissing and dancing with a flirty woman pissed off your girl--that kind of tit for tat behavior always backfires.



Bombay

[dragon]

I concur with the Doctor. :)

[Bad Boi]

i think at times there is a line drawn.........i have known a few femmes that want to be the center of attention (not a bad thing)......so when they flirt or are flirted with they get to be that center of attention.......if a person is ok with their partner flirting and having fun then it should be respected the other way around and said partner be ok with you doing it.......if everything is harmless and there is no intent.......maybe in the future before any more events the both of you should talk about flirting and what is acceptable and what isn't

[deedarino]

In a perfect world you would be right elemental, but life is constantly giving out doses of character building events and sometimes these events take a whack at even the most secure person or relationships.

Limitations are a personal choice, a basic need we all have. The levels are different but if we all respected each other and each others levels especially if they differ from our own, then competition would not be an issue.

Maybe the lines of our partners we are talking about are usually the same as our own, but because of lifes issues we face, we are not as secure as we know we are or can be. Maybe we raise the line because we are needing attention or maybe we lower the line because we are needing attention. We can only hope during these times, our partners can step in and be supportive...and we can do the same for them when the need arises.

[elemental]

Well deedarino, in our imperfect world it isn't that important whether other people think I'm right or not, agree with me or not...what matters is that my actions are consistent with my belief system and that I am actively happy with my choices.

And I think that maybe the word "limitation" (lack) is being used instead of the word "boundary"...but I think I follow what you are saying...I just don't happen to agree. It is an individual's job to set and maintain their own boundaries, and it isn't the responsibility of other people to monitor or protect those boundaries.

So again it comes down to security and validation...can the person trust that the partner is respecting the agreed upon boundaries of the relationship? Is the person feeling enough validation from friends and their partner so that anyone with a similar gender ID is trusted first, rather than immediately put under suspicion?


edited for clarity (hopefully)

[tori]

was my answer too simple?

this doesn't have to be so complicated.

[gayla]

...just to say I wish I had taken more time to flirt with everyone this past weekend!


just like tori, I need to leave this one alone!

(a)

[elemental]

oh, and for the record, I have no idea what party the thread starter is talking about since I haven't been around much for group events - just throwing my opinion in the ring like everyone else.

I don't think this is a black and white issue...and I enjoy discussing how individuals arrive at different shades of grey around subjective, sometimes touchy issues.

It isn't complicated, but it is interesting.

[RopeBurner]

Well, I went up to the beginning question of butchstilgar's about is there a different standard for butches and femmes in flirting. Probably for some there is, thus, your femme suggesting when I flirt and dance provocatively it means nothing but when you do it, there's something wrong/rude/etc. Why the difference just in this instance? She knows HER intentions when flirting, she doesn't know YOURS--even if you say, it's harmless, just fun, everyone's doing it, but baby, you know I only have eyes for you.

When we deconstruct flirting and get to the emotions that can flair up, i.e. jealousy, everyone is so different on how they handle that. You can take classes, read books, have meaningful conversations, deconstruct jealousy all you want with a rational mind BUT you still react in the moment from a gut level.

I am not a jealous person, that doesn't mean I don't get pangs of jealousy it just means I am not ruled by it and don't believe in creating drama over it (during or after an event with a date). When I see other butches flirting with my date, partner, g/f, slave, I think, dang, I think she's
fine/a hottie/great/smart/attractive/whatever, why wouldn't others. It's up to her to respond with appropriate behavior and not cross an agreed upon line.

As for femmes who use the 'I hate other femmes flirting with my guy when she knows I'm with hym' etc. Oh puleese, what's to worry about unless there is not a solid relationship. If the any femme can turn a butches head and make hym run off, hy wasn't the one.

Sadly, I am oblivious to most flirting and probably because over the years as an organizer in the LBGT community, I have to talk to everyone so I am just a little 'duh' in that department. I know that when I am on a date, I may be polite and a gentleman towards other femmes but I am on a date. Although I am poly, I do not need to seize every moment to be on the make, it's just bad manners.

Well, my two cents worth,

Rope--

[butchstilgar]

:$ wow!!! What can I say, I want to make sure I say the right thing here. I agree with most about what is being said about trust and knowing who your going home with....I don't want to give the wrong impression about where I'm coming from here.....I trust my femme completely and normally I don't play the flirting game, I love my femme completely and would never do anything to hurt or disrespect her. My question came from an observation, over a period of time and several different situations and functions. I've watched the "play" that occurs when you get a group of butches and femmes together, having fun and kickin' it. I have had to referee more than one time, when the butch makes the mistake of flirting with another femme and hys femme takes it completely out of context. My girl did nothing wrong....but apparently I did and for that I have apologized....it's just my observation, that this type of situation happens alot. I agree, you have to be secure in your relationship, and I mean both of you, and yes you do have to set boundaries.....what I am saying is that the boundaries for femmes is different than the boundaries set for butches.....I don't have a problem with that, I just wanted to get different oppinions on why this is so......My girl did nothing wrong, we've been married for 7 wonderful years and friends for much longer, I respect herr as I do all women and am normally a gentleman when it comes down to it....so please don't get the wrong impression, those who know us know this to be true, the feedback is great, let me hear some more.....baby, I love you(l) (k)

deedarino, I love ya girlie, you are one of my favorite people to debate with, don't stop:D

[bull dog]

Butchstilgar, thanks for your follow up post. It helped me understand your original post better.

Well I don't know if I have really noticed femmes having different boundaries than butches when it comes to flirting... Hmmm maybe that's one of the reasons why I am the perpetual Butchelor. :s

Now I am not disagreeing with this, just I always think of acceptable levels of flirting being based on an understanding between the two individuals in a couple- and that this varies from couple to couple.

As a single butch and natural born flirt, I do pay attention to who I flirt with. I only flirt with partnered femmes if we are friends and I know that the butch understands and is cool with it. Luckily for me, I have some very hot, sexy partnered femme friends to flirt with- Creamgirl4U, Deedarino, Divacat... the list goes on!!! ;) I wouldn't engage in any heavy duty flirting with partnered femmes that I didn't know very well. I am respectful of couples' relationships and I have never been the source of any problem that I am aware of.

So I think it comes down to behaving responsibly- whether you are single, dating, partnered, whatever-, being respectful of boundaries, and being sensitive and considerate of individual feelings, and group (friend/community) dynamics as well.

Love ya my friends,
Bully

[Spazz]

I basically feel it comes down to respect. Alcohol or not, you respect who you are with, and take in to consideration how you would feel w/ the "dancing shoe" on the other foot.
When you know someone/partner friends, sometimes there is a bit of flirting/joking that goes on. However, the line is where your trust and not trusting and jealousy come in to play.
If you know you do this when you drink, then LIMIT your alcohol, period, if you cant control your wandering lips or hands. Self control shouldnt be a huge issue if you respect that to whom you are with.
If you are with someone, and go home with them, and each other knows you WILL go home w/ them, then you might be dealing w/ jealousy, or lack of confidence or trust.
Best thing is to know where your limits are, talk them over, COMMUNICATE, COMMUNICATE, COMMUNICATE and respect hys/her wishes and boundaries, as we all have them.
Like what was said above, 'what is good for the goose is good for the gander' does not make it ok, nor does it solve things, rarely does it turn out OK.
Ms Kitty~ Tressa

[creamgirl4u]

I love Butchstilgar with all my heart and I just reacted... so insecurely to another femme's flirtatious disrespectful act! I am the biggest flirt I know!! I try and make sure everyone knows I'm a married lady! Drink'in or not! I was blessed/cursed with this ability to act like a jealous wife, and still beable to laugh about it! I have learned alot this past year. Also I have done a few things that I regret. Yes! we have talked/communicated this topic to death...and we have an clear understanding of our love and boundries with respect for one another. Creamgirl (l) (l) (a)