Femme/Feminine-Focused Thread

[nihilisia]

This is a thread specifically to discuss femme/feminine stuff - or stuff with a femme/feminine focus or perspective. Maybe just for practice, a place to discuss the entire realm of experience of femme and/or feminine people here on this site and in our community without deferring to the butch, masculine or male experience.

This thread can be about anything and of course anybody is very welcome to participate - the only goal is keeping things focused on the femme and/or the feminine rather than on the butch, masculine or male.

This can include any posts (of course within the TOS) about how different you are from everybody else and how nobody else understands you. (As the lovely, talented, razor-sharp Taking a Chance mentioned in another thread, this has been a big topic amongst the butch/masculine/male people here on the site).

Are we femmes/feminine types holding back? Are there things we are afraid to state concerning our own experiences as femmes because doing so would make somebody of the butch/masculine/male persuasion uncomfortable? Or other femmes? Are we holding back? Are we being too nice? Too accomodating?

Let me be clear: I'm not asking anybody to be mean or disparaging when I ask if we are being too nice or too accommodating. I am wanting to know how much of our experience is unvoiced.

[laerkin]

Excellent topic/thread. I have subscribed and I need to think about it for awhile. I will be back...

[biobabe]

A couple things that trouble me with how others perceive the femme/feminine experience is that (1) femme is defined by being attached to butch instead of being a gender expression in its own right and (2) femme/feminine as simply being a default gender expression (as in "passing" as straight girls). I'd like femme to be seen as a gender expression that brings with it its own sexual power and liberation.

[KwanYin]

A couple things that trouble me with how others perceive the femme/feminine experience is that (1) femme is defined by being attached to butch instead of being a gender expression in its own right and (2) femme/feminine as simply being a default gender expression (as in "passing" as straight girls). I'd like femme to be seen as a gender expression that brings with it its own sexual power and liberation.


Yes! Those things trouble me too! I have said as much in a few threads just recently. I am glad to have this space and hope some conversation happens!

I shall be back :)

[iamkeri1]

Nihi,
I want to thank you for your efforts in the last several weeks to see that the femme side of the dynamic finds representation here. I experience invisibility at lot in ly life, as a mom, as a femme, as a handicapped woman, thanks for giving us an oopportunity to be heard fully.

When I post, I rarely hold back what I want to say, but I do find that I have to put in many disclaimers to try to keep from being attacked or from derailing the thread while other people are moved to "correct" the "mis-statements" I have made or fill in the gaps they feel I have in my education or experience.

On the top of my wish list is this: I wish that it could just be assumed, when I or anyone else "speaks" that any particular statement is preceeded by "In my opinion" or "it is my experience that...", and that others could understand that it is MY experience, and therefore not arguable. I mean, it happened, why tell me it didn't? Were you there? If not, then let my experience stand as my experience. Your experience may have been WAY different than mine, but that does not mean I am wrong. (or that you are wrong either, for that matter.) You could begin a response with a phrase like "wow!, my experience in that area has been very different - here's what happened to me" Then you get to make your statement and no one argues with that either becasue that's what happened to YOU.

OK, here's the disclaimer. I am using a generalized "you" here. I am not speaking to or about anyone in particular, just posters in general...and the "you" is most definetly NOT directed at Nihilisia.

Smooches,
Keri

[Alex 11]

A couple things that trouble me with how others perceive the femme/feminine experience is that (1) femme is defined by being attached to butch instead of being a gender expression in its own right and (2) femme/feminine as simply being a default gender expression (as in "passing" as straight girls). I'd like femme to be seen as a gender expression that brings with it its own sexual power and liberation.

I completely agree...just posted on this in the Femme Invisibility thread...

What defines Femme gender expression for you? And all the other Femmes reading this thread?

Alex

[tymejumper]

Exactly. I would be femme with or without my butch. She knows that, and does not expect me to fall into a catagory that is a stereotype for femme.

I get tired of femme being a word that equals 'straight acting' also. This was a big thing for me and very confusing when I was discovering that I was a lesbian. I figured that because I had longer hair and wore makeup that I was not a lesbian. I didn't look butch, so therefore I wasn't a real lesbian at all, it was a phase and I would grow out of it. This whole misunderstanding on my part kept me in the closet far longer than I needed to be and far longer than was healthy. People still question me and now days, it just pisses me right off. Things such as "are you sure you're a lesbian" "you wear makeup you cant be a lesbian" and "all lesbians love sports, you dont even play softball" are things that demonstrate bigotry and misunderstandings of the femme identity.

I have grown so much since first identifying my identity and coming out. I wish I knew of a way to promote that we are lesbians also and not invisible, we are not straight and we are not confused. We do not need the 'right' man, nor do we choose women because we have been 'hurt' by a man. I can only come out to others and let them know that I am lesbian, and hope they learn that the queer community is very diverse.

[laerkin]

I'm trying to figure out how to be really honest here without discounting anyone else's experience...and I've decided I can only be responsible for my own thoughts, but hopefully some of these things will make sense.

First - while I do identify as a Femme, it is not all-encompassing. I don't live-breathe-die by the term/gender/experience. This isn't to take anything away from people who see it as their gender and feel it strongly represents their self-expression.

I am Woman, first and foremost. And all of the complexity that comes with Woman. Femme is something I am, too, but it isn't something I consciously embrace all of the time. Part of that is because I'm partnered with a Butch and part of that is simply my journey.

Second - I understand that some people live passionately within certain definitions and rules, either intentionally or experimentally and embrace certain personas or attitudes as being a core part of their experience in this life.

But, I am more fluid. I experience each day and each moment as a new opportunity to RE-define myself. Yes, I am Woman, but I fully inhabit this body into which I was born and I feel comfortable in all of the physical and spiritual elements of it. Woman is the realm in which I exist much of the time and I love it. Queer/Femme/Dyke...those other things come AFTER Woman.

Everything outside of Woman (which in itself does change constantly, now that I think about it), I enjoy trying on and moving into and tasting and sampling and then keeping the parts that work for the journey I'm on...and I continue on my way.

I'm not sure if I'm making any sense at all...

I guess I'm trying to say that I am feminine a lot of the time, Femme some of the time, and Woman all of the time. Femme is just one of many expressions I have in my life.

That being said, sometimes I do feel encouraged or expected to say "Femme" when it may not be quite right in that moment since this is a forum for Butch-Femme. The community and the thoughts that are shared here are so valuable to me. If it felt WRONG I wouldn't use it, but in times when I am unsure or ambivalent, I will use Femme because it is expected or almost offensive to some to be unsure. (Or that is my impression/assumption.)

Finally, I will say that I am totally confident and proud to be Woman. I love my body. I love the things that it does for me...from having a menstrual period to experiencing amazing pleasure to having curves to being something that is sensitive and delicate at times and strong and unmovable at others. I love the emotions and the hormones and the senses that I use to experience life and make decisions. I love being sensitive and strong, empathetic and unyielding, curious and confident, intelligent and silly...all the things I see as being Woman for me.

Whew. I'm still struggling for words for my thoughts and experiences. I'm sure others will be much more eloquent and powerful than I could ever be and I look forward to learning from the others that post here. I'm sure some of the things that others have to say will help give my ideas shape and power, and I expect I'll learn a lot from the other participants.

Thank you for this thread, nihilisia.

[Heart]

I have been doing a lot of letting go, including letting go of "femme." Loosening my grip on identity/gender has been freeing. I have gotten back in touch with my own femininity, which includes what some might think of as masculinity. I have recognized the deep amalgamation of energies and aspects that flow through me (and others) and defy catagorization.

It is so easy for femme/femininity to be hijacked by assumptions, judgments, expectations, agendas, etc. In some ways, as I participated in butch-femme community and organizing over the past decade, I lost my own relationship to femme -- too busy trying to uphold something. I think I am in a process almost rejecting femme -- in order to come back around to it on my own terms.

(l)

P.S. I could say the above about butch. I've been letting go of that too. And in doing so, finding a whole new relationship to it. Exciting. :)

[laerkin]

Wow. Heart. I felt myself saying "Yes! YES!" as I read this. Loosening your grip...that just rang with so much clarity in my head as I read it. I feel like I am constantly defining things in my own terms and that can lead to a lot of confusion on a larger scale within the community. Because we all project our own expectations on these very powerful and charged words and then sometimes that leads to almost a rigidity that I just can't get behind.

Wow. Good stuff. Two thumbs up. (y)(y)


I have been doing a lot of letting go, including letting go of "femme." Loosening my grip on identity/gender has been freeing. I have gotten back in touch with my own femininity, which includes what some might think of as masculinity. I have recognized the deep amalgamation of energies and aspects that flow through me (and others) and defy catagorization.

It is so easy for femme/femininity to be hijacked by assumptions, judgments, expectations, agendas, etc. In some ways, as I participated in butch-femme community and organizing over the past decade, I lost my own relationship to femme -- too busy trying to uphold something. I think I am in a process almost rejecting femme -- in order to come back around to it on my own terms.

[Miss_Divine]

It's so refreshing,
to see someone ELSE feeling the same way.
I prefer the word feminine,
to describe our physical and emotional being.
Not FEMME,
because it describes both gay and straight.

~~~> Always woman first. <~~~
But the label....?
It doesn't give us any room to grow,
when stuck in such confines.

"Nobody puts Baby in a corner...."


I'm trying to figure out how to be really honest here without discounting anyone else's experience...and I've decided I can only be responsible for my own thoughts, but hopefully some of these things will make sense.

First - while I do identify as a Femme, it is not all-encompassing. I don't live-breathe-die by the term/gender/experience. This isn't to take anything away from people who see it as their gender and feel it strongly represents their self-expression.

I am Woman, first and foremost. And all of the complexity that comes with Woman. Femme is something I am, too, but it isn't something I consciously embrace all of the time. Part of that is because I'm partnered with a Butch and part of that is simply my journey.

Second - I understand that some people live passionately within certain definitions and rules, either intentionally or experimentally and embrace certain personas or attitudes as being a core part of their experience in this life.

But, I am more fluid. I experience each day and each moment as a new opportunity to RE-define myself. Yes, I am Woman, but I fully inhabit this body into which I was born and I feel comfortable in all of the physical and spiritual elements of it. Woman is the realm in which I exist much of the time and I love it. Queer/Femme/Dyke...those other things come AFTER Woman.

Everything outside of Woman (which in itself does change constantly, now that I think about it), I enjoy trying on and moving into and tasting and sampling and then keeping the parts that work for the journey I'm on...and I continue on my way.

I'm not sure if I'm making any sense at all...

I guess I'm trying to say that I am feminine a lot of the time, Femme some of the time, and Woman all of the time. Femme is just one of many expressions I have in my life.

That being said, sometimes I do feel encouraged or expected to say "Femme" when it may not be quite right in that moment since this is a forum for Butch-Femme. The community and the thoughts that are shared here are so valuable to me. If it felt WRONG I wouldn't use it, but in times when I am unsure or ambivalent, I will use Femme because it is expected or almost offensive to some to be unsure. (Or that is my impression/assumption.)

Finally, I will say that I am totally confident and proud to be Woman. I love my body. I love the things that it does for me...from having a menstrual period to experiencing amazing pleasure to having curves to being something that is sensitive and delicate at times and strong and unmovable at others. I love the emotions and the hormones and the senses that I use to experience life and make decisions. I love being sensitive and strong, empathetic and unyielding, curious and confident, intelligent and silly...all the things I see as being Woman for me.

Whew. I'm still struggling for words for my thoughts and experiences. I'm sure others will be much more eloquent and powerful than I could ever be and I look forward to learning from the others that post here. I'm sure some of the things that others have to say will help give my ideas shape and power, and I expect I'll learn a lot from the other participants.

Thank you for this thread, nihilisia.

[Martina]

Awesome post. i do know what you mean. i can't really share about it. It's not the right time. But i really related and wanted to say that.


I have been doing a lot of letting go, including letting go of "femme." Loosening my grip on identity/gender has been freeing. I have gotten back in touch with my own femininity, which includes what some might think of as masculinity. I have recognized the deep amalgamation of energies and aspects that flow through me (and others) and defy catagorization.

It is so easy for femme/femininity to be hijacked by assumptions, judgments, expectations, agendas, etc. In some ways, as I participated in butch-femme community and organizing over the past decade, I lost my own relationship to femme -- too busy trying to uphold something. I think I am in a process almost rejecting femme -- in order to come back around to it on my own terms.

(l)

P.S. I could say the above about butch. I've been letting go of that too. And in doing so, finding a whole new relationship to it. Exciting. :)

[puresugar]

Hmmmm!! :s

I don't have my own Butch at the moment, does that mean I'm not Femme - HELL NO!!

It's me - It's who I am and always will be.

Like most others I get overlooked in the bars and clubs. Luckily for me now I look so unique that the door staff recognise me! It wasn't always so, I used to have to explain myself on entering.

I don't see myself as straight looking because I'm afraid where I live at the moment 99% of the women wouldn't be caught dead looking as girly as I do to go out for the evening, let alone to go to the corner shop as i do. (well you never know who you might bump into)

On The flip side of that though Being girlie doesn't make me helpless. If something needs fixing - I do it! From the vac to the outdoor pipes - Climbed a ladder in heels a couple of weeks ago to do just that!! I put up my own new lights and shelves whilst a butch stood and watched because they didn't like to use a drill!!

23 years since i came out and some people still think i can be put back on the straight and narrow so to speak because i don't look like a real lesbian! What does a real lesbian look like?

I'm me, Not gonna change that now, I'm girlie, I love all things pink and purple (even my hair), I have long painted nails, I wear dresses, I wear heals (all the time) but that isn't what makes me femme - that just makes me off the top of the scale femme ;) . Femme is what i feel on the inside - Its just what i always have been and always will be even if i decide to get my hair shaved and start wearing jeans and trainers I will still be femme!!!

[KwanYin]

I really respect that we can be in different places with "Femme" and I hear that some feel they are letting go of or questioning its fit for them in some ways.

I really really hope though that this conversation doesn't only move in the direction of decrying Femme as a limiting label (that word being iksome to me when applied to my identity).

Femme does not feel limiting to me. I feel myself thinking of it in broader and more expansive terms lately in fact. Like some have said, I too am over the stereotypes that get played out around it. But I continue to own and resonate with Femme.

I do not prefer the word feminine to describe myself because I feel like my Femme is not necessarily feminine, at least not in the ways society expects.

[Martina]

i posted this on another thread, but want to repost it here -- it's from an interview in Bitch Magazine with Julie Serano -- http://bitchmagazine.org/article/feminine-protection


A lot of femmes tend to frame the situation this way: We’re femme, but we still challenge heterosexism because our feminine gender expression subverts the patriarchy or the dominant paradigm, or gender binary norms. The implication of that is that feminine women who aren’t queer reinforce those things. So not only does it implicitly suggest that straight women are enabling their own oppression—which I think is pretty fucked up—it also makes the femme experience about being queer, rather than framing it as wrong that society, including the queer community, is dismissing them because they’re feminine.

I wanted to subtitle the book The Scapegoating of Femininity because I think this idea that all people who are feminine are maligned is a totally unexplored area of gender activism. As someone who is a femme dyke, I would argue that we’d be better off calling out the people who dismiss femmes for their hatred of femininity than trying to frame our femininity in this gender-transgressive way that insinuates straight women’s femininity is reinforcing sexist norms. Anyone who’s been in the queer community or who’s been involved in feminism knows that some people have a really condescending attitude towards straight people, and straight women in particular. And I do not understand how people can self-rationalize that kind of behavior with any kind of ending of [societal] sexism.
-----------

Look at the way femme is discussed widely on this site. i am NOT criticizing ANY post or poster. But i don't wanna talk about the fact that i don't fix things or wear heels, much less fix things IN heels. It's not, for me, productive or interesting.

And even the more sophisticated formulations seem to include a lot of what Julie Serano points out. We are fab cuz we are queer. We are immune from the powerlessness that some feminine beings are forced to struggle with by virtue of our queerness. (*Bullshit*) After one has explored one's own personal femme ID, a lot of the public discussion is not very liberating. SOME IS. But in my life, it's not the sweet spot where the most change can be pulled from. Being femme is me. Very much me. And i live it daily. But it's not a hugely creative place for exploration, or for the most part to share exploration with others. i didn't go to the femme conference -- the last one. But the one before that was rife with the kind of sentiment that Serano points out. Something i read leads me to believe that progress has been made. But in general, the public discourse around femme is not that liberating for me.

[Heart]

Martina -- I've wrestled with that aspect of Serano's analysis -- because considering the realities of homophobia and heterosexism, I don't see queer "dismissal" of straight women's identities as hugely problematic. I do see Serano's points about the hatred of femininity - all femininity - (which can include men), and which I think many femmes can and do speak to, in fact highlight, in solidarity with all women and others who are feminine.

I think femmes DO challenge heterosexism and I think femme IS about queer - and that does not automatically mean maligning or "implicating" other women's femininity. In fact many straight women reject patriarchal femininity and I am in solidarity with them on that. But I'm not going to cede femme to straight women, no matter how empowered their particular brand of femininity is. We may be in the fight against sexism and misogyny together, and they may be allies in the fight against homophobia, but that does not make us all the same. Femme is a queer identity, not just because of our brand of femininity, but because femmes are romantically, erotically and sexually partnered with other females/women. That's an important aspect of femme identity, at least to me. In that sense femme is about who you partner with, (not butch per se, but female/female born-raised).

Frankly some things that straight feminine women do, and some things that queer feminine women do, does reinforce the patricarchy - we deconstruct that constantly among queer folk. Straight women deconstruct that also. Many of us, straight and queer, reinforce sexist norms. We all have to examine that constantly. So I don't really get Serano's accusations that somehow femmes are asserting their transgressive femininity at the expense of straight women.

Kwan -- in no way would I express limits on femme for anyone else. But I can't define my own experience with constant disclaimers either. For me, femme identity was enormously liberating, a crucial path in my development. That path continues to circle and I am now considering why/how femme restricts and constricts. That's part of my personal journey, and part of continuing to claim my femme identity.

(l)

[KwanYin]

i posted this on another thread, but want to repost it here -- it's from an interview in Bitch Magazine with Julie Serano -- http://bitchmagazine.org/article/feminine-protection


-----------

Look at the way femme is discussed widely on this site. i am NOT criticizing ANY post or poster. But i don't wanna talk about the fact that i don't fix things or wear heels, much less fix things IN heels. It's not, for me, productive or interesting.

And even the more sophisticated formulations seem to include a lot of what Julie Serano points out. We are fab cuz we are queer. We are immune from the powerlessness that some feminine beings are forced to struggle with by virtue of our queerness. (*Bullshit*) After one has explored one's own personal femme ID, a lot of the public discussion is not very liberating. SOME IS. But in my life, it's not the sweet spot where the most change can be pulled from. Being femme is me. Very much me. And i live it daily. But it's not a hugely creative place for exploration, or for the most part to share exploration with others. i didn't go to the femme conference -- the last one. But the one before that was rife with the kind of sentiment that Serano points out. Something i read leads me to believe that progress has been made. But in general, the public discourse around femme is not that liberating for me.

I really appreciate you re-posting this here, Martina. It got me thinking. I still am...and will post more later.

[laerkin]

I think the Femme label can be a liberating and powerful thing. I know for me, when I first discovered the existence of a butch-femme dynamic I was thrilled! It felt like...YES! Here are people who understand the things I feel! Here are beautiful, powerful, empowered women who are attracted to these powerful, crazy creatures called butches...and that's what I like! I just didn't have any dialog for what I was discovering about myself.

I have since moved a bit away from that to try and discover even more about myself and my path and my sexuality, and that might take me a little away from Femme as my primary sphere (towards Woman or something else or even back to a new definition of Femme...who knows?). But, I know there are many folks moving towards Femme because it's something they feel they can grow and stretch in. And rock on!

I hope to hear and learn from all types and flavors of Femme/feminine/Woman/etc.

KwanYin, I admire so much of what you share and your perspective is communicated so beautifully. You always make me stop, think and reconsider my own words and feelings. Uncomfortable but much appreciated...


I really respect that we can be in different places with "Femme" and I hear that some feel they are letting go of or questioning its fit for them in some ways.

I really really hope though that this conversation doesn't only move in the direction of decrying Femme as a limiting label (that word being iksome to me when applied to my identity).

Femme does not feel limiting to me. I feel myself thinking of it in broader and more expansive terms lately in fact. Like some have said, I too am over the stereotypes that get played out around it. But I continue to own and resonate with Femme.

I do not prefer the word feminine to describe myself because I feel like my Femme is not necessarily feminine, at least not in the ways society expects.

[Martina]

Martina -- I've wrestled with that aspect of Serano's analysis -- because considering the realities of homophobia and heterosexism, I don't see queer "dismissal" of straight women's identities as hugely problematic.

i agree. We can't affect them, which is good. i think that what we do when we ID against them is hurt ourselves by limiting femme. We also do experience less solidarity with women who are, in regards to femininity, on the same battle front -- as you say.



I do see Serano's points about the hatred of femininity - all femininity - (which can include men), and which I think many femmes can and do speak to, in fact highlight, in solidarity with all women and others who are feminine.

I think femmes DO challenge heterosexism and I think femme IS about queer - and that does not automatically mean maligning or "implicating" other women's femininity. In fact many straight women reject patriarchal femininity and I am in solidarity with them on that.

Me too, for the most part. But so much of the time, when we discuss femme ID as queer, we act as if that were sufficient to differentiate us from disempowered feminine beings who can't or won't participate in the struggle to free themselves, and so on. It's the femme has nothing to do with straight. Femme is transgressive by virtue of its queerness (which i don't believe). Femme is performative, ironic, etc. (My performance of femme is NOT brazen, for example.)




But I'm not going to cede femme to straight women, no matter how empowered their particular brand of femininity is. We may be in the fight against sexism and misogyny together, and they may be allies in the fight against homophobia, but that does not make us all the same. Femme is a queer identity, not just because of our brand of femininity, but because femmes are romantically, erotically and sexually partnered with other females/women. That's an important aspect of femme identity, at least to me. In that sense femme is about who you partner with, (not butch per se, but female/female born-raised).

i am in total agreement. i am femme. i am not straight. i am not just a feminine lesbian. i came out as femme because i was hot for butches. (before 1990). My feminine presentation was not causing me problems back then, in part cause i was not THAT feminine. i still am not. i pass, etc. But i did not get tons of criticism from lesbians back in the day.



Frankly some things that straight feminine women do, and some things that queer feminine women do, does reinforce the patricarchy - we deconstruct that constantly among queer folk. Straight women deconstruct that also. Many of us, straight and queer, reinforce sexist norms. We all have to examine that constantly. So I don't really get Serano's accusations that somehow femmes are asserting their transgressive femininity at the expense of straight women.

i do. Femmes constantly, constantly define femme in opposition to those two groups, creating for them an implied or stated abject disempowered id. i agree with you that that is in our minds only. It sure doesn't affect the straight women and feminine lesbians. But it's done a lot. A HUGE amount. Not just casually, but at least in the past, in our culture work. It's rife with this stuff. i wrote a paper for the femme conference before last, and i couldn't use all the examples of this i found, there were so many. Plus the conference itself included statement after statement to that effect. i think things have changed, but .. . .

[bonn]

I saw this thread earlier but had no words. Here are some thoughts now.

My representation for the most part, is feminine. If femme is a gender exclusively lesbian then I am not a femme. If femme is a gender partaking in gender/sexual fluidity, I have no problem with claiming the "femme" label, one out of many.

Having said that, feminine to me is powerful. My reclaimation is critical because without it no one else can reclaim it. No one can reclaim my body, my curves, the way I speak, think or the places I come from with the experiences I have had as a feminine entity. Those things are mine.

Yet, I am met sometimes with hostility when I don't reflect the feminine trends. When I reject subserviency. When I reject cordiality for the sake of being cordial. When I am not easy going, laughable, "cute" or any other frivolous outward trend/representation. I am misinterpreted for being a bitch, "manly", too rational or worse,...cold.

I have no opinion of others choose to be this way. As long as they are happy, I am happy. This is strictly speaking from a "femme" space, personally.

I reclaim femme and the feminine because I cannot deny what I am but the "feminine trends" (and please take this term loosely - it is not in condemnation of anyone or any way of life) are what I am not a part of and it's not what I'm made of. I've tried the trendy and I feel like I'm in drag. I am woman and I don't need to giggle.

I don't think this is not important. I'm tired of being misunderstood because I do not reflect the overly sensual nature that some feminine people or femmes have. I don't bother cushioning things because I'm afraid someone will break their back. This is the kind of reclaimation I seek and am in accordance with. This is what I reclaim as (queer) femme and as feminine.

[Lips]

Are we femmes/feminine types holding back? Are there things we are afraid to state concerning our own experiences as femmes because doing so would make somebody of the butch/masculine/male persuasion uncomfortable? Or other femmes? Are we holding back? Are we being too nice? Too accomodating?

Let me be clear: I'm not asking anybody to be mean or disparaging when I ask if we are being too nice or too accommodating. I am wanting to know how much of our experience is unvoiced.

Have you met me? ;) I'm not exactly a 'hold it back' type.

I was having a conversation with Metropolis and Joe about this exact thing actually. I feel like as femmes we do sublimate a lot of our needs to talk about ourselves in being butch allies. I think because on the surface we look like we move through society well, but in all actuality we have to assert ourselves as queer and stand firm on who and what we want in the straight one. So we are asserting our queerness constantly, and that takes a lot of energy.

Now let me fill you in. I'm a trash talking, loud-mouthed femme. I am not submissive (unless you are REAL special), I don't 'quiet' down, I'm not likely to hold back an opinion (for anyone) and as a friend said once, I talk like a dyke. However, I also consider myself very femme. I maintain myself. The contradiction is not lost on me, nor do I care about it.

I've claimed femme since I was 17, going 'butch' for 3 years (I have pictures), due to people's insistence that I was 'bi' due to my gender presentation (oh how I don't miss the 90's). I think I personally, have adapted myself in fundamental ways in order to be read as queer and later, to support butches and trans folk. I am only with in the last few years understanding how much we as femmes also need that support. I may be late to the game with that, but eh, wouldn't be the first time.

I believe we need to talk about this, and also to come up with a different definition of femme. Just as we do for the myriad ways one can be butch.

[TickledPink]

If I may, just for "my" own educational purposes, does "not owning pants" make one a higher femme than one who perhaps wears pants 90% of the time?

I have a very hard time with high femme. One person, ONE, has been able to explain this to me in a way that I get it. (sorry if I'm off topic)

So, speaking of femme and the feminie side of me, that's not ALL I am. That is my gender, but I'm made up of a lot of other ingredients. We are all complex, yummy creatures!

I never hold back. I'm always femme. If I have on pants, I'm femme. If I wear a baseball cap, I'm femme. But to discuss this "without deferring to the butch, masculine or male experience" also leaves out a part of me too. Do we not all have a masculine side? An inner butch? Maybe?

[Lips]

If I may, just for "my" own educational purposes, does "not owning pants" make one a higher femme than one who perhaps wears pants 90% of the time?

I have a very hard time with high femme. One person, ONE, has been able to explain this to me in a way that I get it. (sorry if I'm off topic)

So, speaking of femme and the feminie side of me, that's not ALL I am. That is my gender, but I'm made up of a lot of other ingredients. We are all complex, yummy creatures!

I never hold back. I'm always femme. If I have on pants, I'm femme. If I wear a baseball cap, I'm femme. But to discuss this "without deferring to the butch, masculine or male experience" also leaves out a part of me too. Do we not all have a masculine side? An inner butch? Maybe?



Maybe I shouldn't have written that Pink. It was meant tongue in cheek. I don't believe that your pants count= your femme count.

[Heart]

Femmes constantly, constantly define femme in opposition to those two groups, creating for them an implied or stated abject disempowered id. i agree with you that that is in our minds only. It sure doesn't affect the straight women and feminine lesbians. But it's done a lot. A HUGE amount. Not just casually, but at least in the past, in our culture work. It's rife with this stuff. i wrote a paper for the femme conference before last, and i couldn't use all the examples of this i found, there were so many. Plus the conference itself included statement after statement to that effect. i think things have changed, but .. . .

Hmmmm... yes, I can see what you're saying... But as one of the organizers of the first femmecon I think you might be confusing a desire/need/goal for " queer femme space," (which included male femmes, etc) with some sort of agenda to disempower other identities, (straight women, feminine (non-femme) lesbians, etc), which was not at all the intention - though its worth looking at whether that was a byproduct.
I think it was the 2nd femmecon that actually had Julia Serano as a keynote speaker...

[TickledPink]

Maybe I shouldn't have written that Pink. It was meant tongue in cheek. I don't believe that your pants count= your femme count.

But I'm glad you did write it! Because......It brought up something that I think needs to be discussed which is the topic of High Femme and what it means to folks. I know there are other threads on this but the point, to me, was never quite there.....

IMO---- high femme should be what you have done for your community, what you have learned,your experiences as femme, not what's in your closet, on your face and how girly you look. I know there are those that will not agree with me, and, that's fine too. :D

[Martina]

Hmmmm... yes, I can see what you're saying... But as one of the organizers of the first femmecon I think you might be confusing a desire/need/goal for " queer femme space," (which included male femmes, etc) with some sort of agenda to disempower other identities, (straight women, feminine (non-femme) lesbians, etc), which was not at all the intention - though its worth looking at whether that was a byproduct.
I think it was the 2nd femmecon that actually had Julia Serano as a keynote speaker...

That's cool -- re the second conference. No, i don't think i am confusing the two. It usually emerges as part of a definition of femme, part of the we are fabulous statements. We are. But not because we aren't straight or because we are not feminine lesbians. And some of the reasons we are fabulous are not unique to us. And that's fine.

This is not from the conference but from an old post here on b-f.com. There's a lot of energy behind these disavowals of being like straight women. When we define ourselves in opposition to others, when we insist our queerness is what makes our femininity transgressive or less disempowering, then we ARE constructing straight women as victims, as women who are unreflective about their femininity, as people without agency and power. It's a mistake. It really affects us more than it does them. The result of these disavowals is a performative, politicized definition of femme that i, for one, do not relate to strongly. It also can imply we don't have to work as hard to reconstruct femininity or that our relationships do not have to be as carefully examined for sexism. i think this stuff excludes a lot of femmes. It's a way of looking at femme that comes from politics and the academy, not from the lives of femmes as we live them.


our entire lives are formed and created and lived WITHOUT A SINGLE DESIRE or attempt to be heteronormative, heteroqueer, het in any way, without the need to "pass." . . .What I'm saying is this: the desire to "normalize" one's queerness, the desire to pass as het-anything, when one is -- by definition -- NOT het, is horrifying to me. And I don't share it in any way. I'd appreciate not having that forced on my very NON-normative body, sexuality, and desire.

[Heart]

That's cool -- re the second conference. No, i don't think i am confusing the two. It usually emerges as part of a definition of femme, part of the we are fabulous statements. We are. But not because we aren't straight or because we are not feminine lesbians. And some of the reasons we are fabulous are not unique to us. And that's fine.

This is not from the conference but from an old post here on b-f.com. There's a lot of energy behind these disavowals of being like straight women. When we define ourselves in opposition to others, when we insist our queerness is what makes our femininity transgressive or less disempowering, then we ARE constructing straight women as victims, as women who are unreflective about their femininity, as people without agency and power. It's a mistake. It really affects us more than it does them. The result of these disavowals is a performative, politicized definition of femme that i, for one, do not relate to strongly. It also can imply we don't have to work as hard to reconstruct femininity or that our relationships do not have to be as carefully examined for sexism. i think this stuff excludes a lot of femmes. It's a way of looking at femme that comes from politics and the academy, not from the lives of femmes as we live them.

This is really interesting Martina -- thanks for engaging --

I find myself nodding in agreement re the odd idea that our femme-ness makes us any more empowered than anyone else - because it's not that simple. But I also find myself squinting over the idea that our queerness does not make our femininity transgressive -- because I think it does, though that is not the only way to transgress femininity. Again - I differentiate between patriarchal femininity and any femininity owned and expressed by anyone (femme, queer, straight, male, female) outside of that.

I think it's true that there is a fair amount of defining ourselves in opposition to others -- and I think that creates a whole host of issues within queer communities (not just for femmes) that are problematic, though not unusual in marginalized groups. And I also agree that it hurts no one but us.

But regarding the quote you posted -- it reads to me (and I have no idea who said it) not as straight vs queer femme per se, but as claiming a queer identity within the context of heterosexism and homophobia (i.e. what is "normal"). I have always felt myself to be in solidarity with other women and have never been interested in denigrating straight women's identities or painting them as disempowered in comparison to me. But I have to acknowledge the impact of heterosexism and homophobia, especially on femme identity. I do not want to be thought of as "het" in my relationships, identity, sexuality or desires because that erases the heterosexism and homophobia I encounter in one form or another almost every day.

Heart

[Martina]

But I also find myself squinting over the idea that our queerness does not make our femininity transgressive -- because I think it does, i could be persuaded, and i have held this belief. The reason i don't now is because it's so overstated, so made easy. i think it's a problem for femmes still struggling to find a healthy and empowered femininity to be told that it's nearly sufficient to be queer, to wear a boa and travel in loud mouthed packs or whatever the chants are. That is too simple, and it erases the hard hard work it is for most of us to feel safe and sexy and strong in our femininity.


I do not want to be thought of as "het" in my relationships, identity, sexuality or desires because that erases the heterosexism and homophobia I encounter in one form or another almost every day.


i have a quote somewhere from an essay saying that we CAN NOT exist in a heteronormative framework just by virtue of our femmeness. Oh god. i mean, god. Would it were so easy. To be snarky for a second, that writer should have read this website.

i like what you said about not wanting your encounters with heterosexism and homophobia to go unrecognized. i want my marks to show, too. And i like the fact that they are bonds i have with queers of other genders.

i don't want to be thought of as het either. i am not heterosexual. i am not androgynous. i am not vanilla. All these things do make me transgressive in some ways. But that is not how i choose to express my femme identity, through a series of disavowals. i am not a repudiation to those who live their own lives, perhaps taking as many risks in their struggles with patriarchy as i do.

[laerkin]

Some of these posts are tremendously thought-provoking. I think it's going to take some reading, re-reading, thinking and reading again before I can make sense of my feelings and thoughts on many of these strong and opinionated posts.

This is the meat and the substance that I love to roll around and around to see where I end up.

[nihilisia]

One thing that's difficult for me as a femme is the dealing the masculine pronouns. It's a difficulty we all share, whether butch or femme, as members of this community. It's the remembering of each individual masculine individual's specific pronoun preference and the knowledge that saying the wrong pronoun has the potential to OFFEND and then I feel the need for apologies.

More later. I'm not exactly complaining on this one - it's just a source of stress for me. I assume it's a stress for the non-femmes too but I do feel like there's a "good-femme"/"bad-femme" onus to forgetting which pronoun a person prefers.

[RavFiFemme]

*Gratuitous thread bump*

I don't have the goods intellectually to contribute to this thread, but am going to follow it with interest if it starts up again. :) Thank you to all the amazing posters thusfar. (l)

[Firedance]

... I think because on the surface we look like we move through society well, but in all actuality we have to assert ourselves as queer and stand firm on who and what we want in the straight one. So we are asserting our queerness constantly, and that takes a lot of energy.

Okay, so I LOVE this thread... but a whole lot of big words started getting thrown around. Trust me, using 5 dollar words is a particular hobby of mine, and I delight in talking with anyone who can hang, linguistically speaking, but I want to bring this discussion back to the ground, because I think it speaks to our daily life.

There are things I see differently as a Femme. There are times that I get pissy because it feels like I walk through this life without a community. "My people" don't see me, and I have to keep outing myself to straight people, just because I refuse to take a smile from someone who would glare at the rest of my gay family. And yeah, it takes a LOT of energy. Especially when being me has such a high cost in terms of my family life, and yet the only people who accept my queerness are gay men, and people on-line.

Grrrrrr... okay, obviously I'm pretty raw about this right now. But I wanted to get that off my chest...

What about the rest of you Femmes... anything to say? Any rants you just need to blurt out?