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joectigger
07-16-2007, 04:56 AM
Someone actually did a story ranking the Top 15 Hottest Butches in film, TV, and music. Now of course it's not based on any of them identifying as butch, but how they look and appear to be butch. Take a peek at the article which includes pics, videos, and how the panelists judged those in the Top 15.

Did they do a good job? Are there characteristics that were not covered by the judges? Were there any on the list that don't do it for you and any that you would have added instead?

Here's the beginning of the article. Enjoy!



The Top 15 Hottest Butches
by Malinda Lo, Managing Editor
July 15, 2007
We've all heard the stereotypes: Butch lesbians wear too much flannel, clunky shoes and suffer from an excess of bad hair (mullet, anyone?). But that stereotype, which reflects a broad cultural discomfort with masculinity in women, has another side: the erotic. For those who like their lovers to be more genderqueer than traditionally feminine, butches rock the house.

To give props to the butches who make many a lesbian's heart skip a beat, I put together a panel of four lesbians — three butch-loving femmes and one genuine butch — to rank the hottest 15 butches in film, TV and music.

The Panelists:

Dawn — A femme who appreciates the gentlemanlike behavior of an old-school butch.

Claudia — A femme with a superb ability to shop and a keen fashion sense.

Gabby — A femme who enjoys an old-fashioned romance but doesn't hesitate to speak her mind.

Sarah — A butch who appreciates butches. And if the other panelists ranked her, she'd be No. 1.

I brought the panelists together to discuss what makes a butch a butch, and they concluded that there are five important qualities to consider:

Handiness — Beyond being able to fix a leaking pipe or knowing how use a power drill, "handiness is what she can do for me," said Dawn with a smirk.

Hair and Fashion — The panelists all agreed that a butch could have long hair and still be butch, but the hair must not be feminine in appearance. Similarly, being a butch doesn't necessarily require a woman to wear men's clothing, but she must avoid fashion that makes her look girlie.

Posture — This quality encompasses a woman's physicality, from how she walks and sits to the sound of her voice and how she holds her beer.

Butch Attitude — A combination of chivalry, machismo and that butch je ne sais quoi, this quality may be hard to define but, as Claudia said, "Girl, you know what we're talking about."

How Hot She Looks in a White Ribbed Tank Top — The way she carries off this essential lesbian fashion accessory is a key determining factor of hotness.

Once the top five butch qualities were determined, I showed the panelists video clips and photos of butch lesbian characters in film and TV, as well as lesbian and bisexual female musicians. Each panelist rated each woman on the five qualities, giving her a score from one (least butch) to five (most butch).

Some women who score highly on one quality may score lower on another (which allows for variation in types of butches), but all the panelists agreed that a really hot butch would score very high in each quality. To determine how the women ranked, I averaged the panelists' scores in each quality and then added them up. There is a possibility of 25 total points, and only one woman earned a perfect score.

Without further ado, here's the countdown of the top 15 hottest butches in film, TV and music:



http://www.afterellen.com/people/2007/7/topbutches?page=0%2C0

Kyssme
07-16-2007, 05:03 AM
7. Cleo Sims (Queen Latifah) in Set It Off: The Gangsta Butch


in MY opinion, Queen La IS numbers 1-15!!!!!! YUMMY!!!!! HAWT!!!!! :P

seriously, not many of the others do it for me at all :|




p.s. i know photos can be misleading, but the panelists all seen kinda youngish ... i wonder if older butch-lovers preferences were fairly represented here.


p.p.s. i really don't like they're rating system- "handiness"? really???

Kitten
07-16-2007, 07:33 AM
Although I agree with Kyssme that the rating system isn't necessarily reflective of the criteria I would use to rate "butchness" (although my critieria is ineffable, anyway) using their system, I mostly agree with the choices.

Exceptions:

1. I've never read Corky in Bound as butch. Tomboy femme-ish - somethin' - but not butch (or at least, she doesn't make my butch-dar go off.

2. Jenny Schimuzu. Ah...let me count the ways. lol She's my number one pic. :P

3. K.D. Lang - she was another one that never made my butch-dar go off. I thought she was "butchy" but not butch. However, I met her last summer (purely coincidental - she's friends with someone who's friends with my friend) so she was at a barbeque I attended last summer. She totally made my butch-dar go off in real time. :)

But it was fun to see the rating system, and even if I didn't agree with them, to see butches talked about.

To what Kyssme said as well, "butch" seems to be changing a lot with the younger generation, and in a lot of cases seems to be an adjective rather than a noun, but.. perhaps that's just me being old-fashioned. ;)

PrincessFluff
07-16-2007, 07:43 AM
That was fun! Thank you...

I too don't really read butch for most of them...except Jenny Shimizu... yum yum yum...

maybe kd lang would do in a pinch... ;)

resqx
07-16-2007, 07:50 AM
butches? where? (n)

aprettydress
07-16-2007, 07:52 AM
Beat me to it, QuickDraw McGraw.

DivaTX45
07-16-2007, 07:54 AM
Well......um.......

Thank You, Mr. TiggerLicious(k) , for sharing this...........I personally loved the list.........though it made me realize just how OUT of the loop I really AM!!! <giggle>


~Diva (8)

justaroccitygirl
07-16-2007, 07:58 AM
I think maybe I'm a bit old fashioned... but I prefer the classic butch to any of the others, especially to the LA Butch. No one I would date would wear eyeliner unless dressing like a pirate for halloween. I'm just a picky bitch like that.

Sthrnnyer
07-16-2007, 08:07 AM
Neat countdown. I know of a few femmes who would fawn over some on the list. But what I still don't get is why the LA butches are seen as hot? I have heard people talk about Shane this and Shane that... uhm... why?

DAYWALKER
07-16-2007, 08:09 AM
I've always had a great fondness for Queen Latifah, and Ellen...so I was glad
to see them in the Top 15.
(y)
Whether they identify with the results or not, it was a lot of fun to click through.
<:o)
I have no idea who half of them are.
:|
And yes, the LA Butches are of a different...character than what I am
used to being in the company of.
Where are the rest of the countries Butches at in the representative?
:[

QueenofQueens
07-16-2007, 08:15 AM
I guess I'm glad to see any kind of list at all but I'm mostly reminded that we've got a long way to go with butch representation in the media. It would have been nice to see more actual butches on that list as opposed to the Barbizon school variety, "Be a butch or just look (sort of) like one!" :s

hym
07-16-2007, 08:18 AM
Jackie Warner: The L.A. Butch is NOT Butch.

Other than that I am going to refrain from posting some things that may be read as inappropriate and offensive.

nihilisia
07-16-2007, 08:22 AM
*supersigh* There are not enough butches in our media.

It may be the mood I`m in today, but I had a hard time reading the comments by the judges as well. Like, that same icky feeling I get watching the swimsuit competition of a beauty pageant.

DAYWALKER
07-16-2007, 08:24 AM
I agree with Hym and QofQ as far as proper Butch Representation.
:|

One would only have to spend a few minutes in our B-F gallery to see
the huge difference.
(p)
I wonder if we could perhaps get LOGO to do it all over, but this time...cover more than the 'LA look. I mean, it's not like I have a lot of room to talk, with my long mane and what not...but still. To meet me changes that impression...lol!
8o|...;)
But I would like to see something along the lines of Butch in a Butch Poll.

Perhaps Hym could do a poll of the Hottest B-F Butches?
:)
:[

Lips
07-16-2007, 08:28 AM
It would have been nice to see more actual butches on that list as opposed to the Barbizon school variety, "Be a butch or just look (sort of) like one!" :s

I was really saddened to see characters, vs. living life as butch-butches.

How many of THOSE do we have on the list? 3 mmaayybbeee. (I think Ellen is more butch off camera, ps and by the way)

nihilisia
07-16-2007, 08:28 AM
As far as the comments go about whether somebody is butch or not:

Michelle Rodriguez *feels* butch to me despite the fact that she wears makeup and girl clothes. So does T-Boz Watkins. (These two were not mentioned). So does Queen Latifah. So does Ellen. So does K.D. Lang. So does Melissa Etheridge. I would love to see some people up there who live butch and claim butch as well.

hym
07-16-2007, 08:28 AM
Perhaps Hym could do a poll of the Hottest B-F Butches?

:)
:[

Sorry but, no.
I made a recent promise to 'e' that I would refrain from creating threads/polls/posts that may get me banned from B-F

Greyson
07-16-2007, 08:29 AM
butches? where? (n)

I am with you resqx. But I will admit, the tat on the asian butch, the girl straddling a wrench with "Strap On" written on the wrench.......
And, would be nice to see some more diversity. Where is a Latino/a Butch? An Older Butch? A Cowboy type Butch? A nerd Butch? You get the point.

DAYWALKER
07-16-2007, 08:30 AM
Sorry but, no.
I made a recent promise to 'e' that I would refrain from creating threads/polls/posts that may get me banned from B-F

B-F
That is a valid promise.
(y)
I would hella miss you.
:'(
N'er mind the poll dealio.
:|
:[

hym
07-16-2007, 08:31 AM
As far as the comments go about whether somebody is butch or not:

[I] would love to see some people up there who live butch and claim butch as well.
Jackie Warner: The L.A. Butch would never claim to be Butch. Ask her.:)

nihilisia
07-16-2007, 08:33 AM
Do any of them claim butch?

RebelFemme
07-16-2007, 08:36 AM
Thanks for posting the link to that. There's a whole lotta hottness goin' on in those top 15. I can't say I agree with them all, but I sure liked the pics. I also have a few movies to add to my Netflix queue too.

hym
07-16-2007, 08:36 AM
B-F

That is a valid promise.
(y)
I would hella miss you.
:'(
N'er mind the poll dealio.
:|
:[


I (l) you too man.
Honest I do.

Ieatcactus
07-16-2007, 08:53 AM
Who the hell is Corky in Bound?

hym
07-16-2007, 08:56 AM
:| .........

DivaTX45
07-16-2007, 08:57 AM
:| .........


Ditto THAT!!! :| :|


~Diva (8)

JackSpade
07-16-2007, 08:58 AM
just because I express butch one way absolutely doesn't mean someone else will. If any of these people identify as butch, who am I to question their vision and expression of theirself.

QueenofQueens
07-16-2007, 09:01 AM
I was really saddened to see characters, vs. living life as butch-butches.

How many of THOSE do we have on the list? 3 mmaayybbeee. (I think Ellen is more butch off camera, ps and by the way)

It makes me sad too. Especially considering, I had an ex who was an extremely talented singer and comedian who had a horrible time breaking into show business. I think a lot of talented butch performers end up ghettoized because they typically don't get hired for mainstream work. I mean, I was happy when "Bound" came out, but Gina Gershon? Give me a fucking break.
The entertainment industry continues to reject butch women in favor of "less threatening" non-butches who could maybe be styled as butch if the occassion calls for it.
It's a sore subject for me. It really pisses me off.

Edited to add: By the way, I'm not trying to imply that actual butch actors should be typecast only in butch roles. I'm just saying that is there is a role that could help them break into the business, why not give it to an actual butch? There are plenty of them out there.
It reminds me of how Hollywood used to hire white actors to play POC roles back in the day. What a bunch of bullshit.

nihilisia
07-16-2007, 09:03 AM
Jack - I agree. I still think

1. More variety in the butches to choose from would be nice.

2. Most (all?) of these people do not claim butch.

I think it`s a bit like saying Angelina Jolie is the hottest femme even though she`s never identified as a femme (that I know of).

Kitten
07-16-2007, 09:09 AM
...But I would like to see something along the lines of Butch in a Butch Poll.

...

Jenny S. identies as butch. Has done so publicly, for years. Went so far as to call Angelina Jolie "her femme" while they were dating. Although, to Nihilisia's point - Angelina has never (that I know of) identified as a femme.

Katanaboi
07-16-2007, 09:10 AM
I'm familiar with almost the entire list....For me, I'd say that alot of them seem more of a dyke image then butch....
Joan Jett, Ellen, Melissa, & Queen Latifah are all major hot though (y)
My fav's on the list were Gina Gershon (bound) and Chloe Sevigny, two great actresses who I think pulled off their roles well & butched it up great!


~Katana~

hym
07-16-2007, 09:12 AM
I think it`s a bit like saying Angelina Jolie is the hottest femme even though she`s never identified as a femme (that I know of).
I once heard Angelina say "I'm always the one on top. I want someone who can put me on the bottom," on Late Show with David Letterman.

This of course, has nothing to do with this thread.

DAYWALKER
07-16-2007, 09:17 AM
Jenny S. identies as butch. Has done so publicly, for years. Went so far as to call Angelina Jolie "her femme" while they were dating. Although, to Nihilisia's point - Angelina has never (that I know of) identified as a femme.


:|
Mmmkay...that's kinda hot.
:)
((Edited to add: To me...lol, from my me place and what not.))
:[

FeminineAllure
07-16-2007, 09:28 AM
I would not kick any one of them out of my bedroom(y)

PrincessFluff
07-16-2007, 09:31 AM
Interesting comments about Jackie Warner...

I have to say, with full disclosure that I do not know any of these women personally, and I'm assuming most of us don't... but if you do.. I'd like jenny's #.. but that's another story...

Jackie .. she actually reads butch-trying-not-to-be to me...I've known a few lesbians like that in my life.. women who insisted they were not butch or femme.. but outwardly tried really hard to look femme (and it really looks more like drag, though not on Jackie) but really read butch.. to ME...

I always found that sad.. anyway, that's the way I view Jackie to some extent... at least from what I have seen on TV...

luvin61
07-16-2007, 09:52 AM
Sorry but, no.
I made a recent promise to 'e' that I would refrain from creating threads/polls/posts that may get me banned from B-F

that's why you get people like to me to start the *tell me about your boobies thread*...that was your idea buddy,,lol ! :o

Apocalipstic
07-16-2007, 09:53 AM
I do like the the type that Cloe S played in if Walls Could Talk 2. I really related to that segment of the movie.

Queen Latifa is way hot, and even hotter with a machine gun.

Jenny S and KD are really not my type, but seem to at least embrace being butch? The times I have seen or met KD in person, were several years ago during the unfortunate "dress like Lestat" period....so, there were a lot of manly ruffles. |-)

Ellen is a cutie and big props for dating Portia. :D

Is Melissa Butch? When she lived here in Nashville, she presented more alternative granola rocker. ;)

Bottom line....

MORE BUTCHES IN THE MEDIA!

Oh, and being on Top does not mean one is not Femme. :)

Sthrnnyer
07-16-2007, 10:01 AM
I once heard Angelina say "I'm always the one on top. I want someone who can put me on the bottom," on Late Show with David Letterman.

This of course, has nothing to do with this thread.

Top, bottom, Angelina any which way is HAWT! (6)

BlueMoonWolf
07-16-2007, 10:06 AM
Okay all the list did for me was to make me laugh.... but I do have a few suggestions of those that were forgotten

Sabrina Matthews (http://www.sabrinamatthews.com/) - comic, currently on Last comic Standing

Lea Delaria (http://www.delariadammit.com/) - comic, singer - currently working live performances. As well as "Fat Rose and Squeeky" on Showtime. But don't judge by the femmed images on the offical website, youtube has a more accurate picture with these clips (http://youtube.com/results?search_query=lea+delaria&search=) Lea has been out as a butch before being gay was "cool" in the media

just thought I would toss those into for discussion

BMW

DAYWALKER
07-16-2007, 10:10 AM
Okay all the list did for me was to make me laugh.... but I do have a few suggestions of those that were forgotten

Sabrina Matthews (http://www.sabrinamatthews.com/) - comic, currently on Last comic Standing

Lea Delaria (http://www.delariadammit.com/) - comic, singer - currently working live performances, but don't judge by the femmed images on the offical website, youtube has a more accurate picture with these clips (http://youtube.com/results?search_query=lea+delaria&search=) Lea has been out as a butch before being gay was "cool" in the media

just thought I would toss those into for discussion

BMW


I actually thought of Sabrina as one of the Butches that has had more success
in as far as the breaking through the media, than I have seen in a while.
(y)
She is hella funny too!
<:o)
:[

thinkpink
07-16-2007, 10:13 AM
I guess I'm glad to see any kind of list at all but I'm mostly reminded that we've got a long way to go with butch representation in the media. It would have been nice to see more actual butches on that list as opposed to the Barbizon school variety, "Be a butch or just look (sort of) like one!" :s
I second that! I'd like to see some big, strong Daddys in the mix...but hey, I can content myself with the real life ones :)

aprettydress
07-16-2007, 10:14 AM
I think it`s a bit like saying Angelina Jolie is the hottest femme even though she`s never identified as a femme (that I know of).

Exactly. Or any other non-IDing-as-Femme person, to hear her femininity being Queered makes my VayJayNah angry.

I'm feeling similarily with regards to Butch-ness being assumed, appraised and handed out like a door prize to any Hollywood chick with an a-shirt, chain wallet and a short haircut.

-Dress

BlueMoonWolf
07-16-2007, 10:25 AM
I actually thought of Sabrina as one of the Butches that has had more success
in as far as the breaking through the media, than I have seen in a while.
(y)
She is hella funny too!
<:o)
:[



And she's hella cute too... Ahhhh what more could a girl ask for... cute and can make you laugh ;) but you are right she has had her own special on Comedy network as well as still in the running for Last Comic standing

Sun
07-16-2007, 10:35 AM
I think maybe I'm a bit old fashioned... but I prefer the classic butch to any of the others, especially to the LA Butch. No one I would date would wear eyeliner unless dressing like a pirate for halloween. I'm just a picky bitch like that.


Right on (y)(y)(y)

AZBUTCHDOM
07-16-2007, 10:43 AM
Wow...how confusing. I thought all of those people would actually be butches, not just play them in a movie or on TV. That's really sad that some weren't even actual butches, just acting butch.

Real butches don't get far in the entertainment industry, except behind the scenes...with very few exceptions.

I wonder if some people are threatened by the (non-femme-like) butches, or just can't fathom us.

Side note: Any butch I know wouldn't be caught dead in the outfit Melissa Etheridge wore for her wedding. And some of those other women are extremely feminine in real life. Thanks so much AfterEllen for having them represent butches. It really helps us be understood, appreciated and respected. Not. :s
AZBD

homeboi
07-16-2007, 11:16 AM
clothes don't make the butch.....just sayin......

Lulygrl
07-16-2007, 11:17 AM
Ya know, I liked the movie By Hook or By Crook, but I don't know why Harry Dodge wasn't in that list, way cuter than Silas Howard in my opinion...probably too genderqueer or actually closer to butch than the rest of them is why. ..and those rating systems, come on people! Anyhoo, yeah I definitely wouldn't kick either Jenny or Latifah out of bed LOL..

DaddyMelvin
07-16-2007, 11:20 AM
I’m glad to see Silas Howard in the list. By Hook or by Crook is a great movie with love scenes between butches and femmes and true to life buddy scenes between butch buddies and is actually made by butch identified people. I want to see more. C mon butch movie makers. We need more actual butches in the movies and butches making movies.

Now I must say this, I can’t believe the panel picked an actress playing a butch as #1 over an actual real butch identified person. I’m just saying, C mon folks.(the panel not people in this thread) Chloe did a good job but there is nothing like seeing your own brothers on the big screen. :)

Sophisticated1
07-16-2007, 11:25 AM
Well that is the problem. A lot of folks think that “butch” is any woman in a tool belt and work boots, or any woman with short hair and a kiss my ass attitude, or any woman who has an aggressive way of doing something like “playing the guitar.” (Joan Jett Butch???? ummm not so much. Joan Jett strong kick ass woman? Umm yeah!) Basically, I think many people out there confuse “butch” with “not stereotypically feminine” so anything that is remotely out of the box of what is accepted as “feminine” is automatically “butch.”

I think it is difficult to find any type of female representation in the media past a few basic stereotypes of what women should look and act like, never mind actual butches. Given our society and culture, I think that butches will be the last to be represented in the media, in any sort of positive way that is.

I think that we will have to get in the line of media acceptance, behind all the other incarnations of female that are currently not seen as “mainstream.” All the brands of feminine women who are not cookie cutters of runway models or Hollywood actors, the androgynous women who are not slaves to gender expectations, the down to earth natural versions who are not slaves to the fashion or “product” industry, etc etc. I think “butch” will be the last bastion of female expression to be acknowledged and accepted in our culture.


S1

Kasino
07-16-2007, 01:05 PM
Bahahahaha...lame.



Who said us real butches aren't human?..do we eat shit?,and a wide variety of other things?.
(don't answer that)


I'm a butch,but i aint a glamourous one,just a macho one that will date ''women'' and wear anything i wish to..but in a classy sort of way you could say.
And believe it or not that's enough for some to say i'm not a real butch.
But i laugh in those ''femmes'' faces who can stand there and compare me to some actress who gets paid to cut her hair short and act ''mannish''..that's hollywood baby,what?,you can't handle the real thing?.
It's not that i'm ''not butch'' anymore,it's just that it takes too much time to impress your kind these days,and i'm much happier now just dressing down and going whatever direction i want for the day,night,for the remaining of my life.
Oh sometimes i might wear a shirt and tie,a suit with style,my hair slick back nice,some days it's just a wifebeater and jeans..but i'm truly not trying to be anything but myself,people should try it.
It's a great feeling to not care what people (mostly the inexperienced) think about you,and truly not caring about what people think is not being extravagant and gaudy with my attitude,its just the loss of fear of ''looking like a butch.''
In a shorter sentence..
I'm saving my heart for a genuine femme who will recognize a real butch when she see's one..Thank Goddess for Real Femmes..


Love yous all
(k) (f) (k)

:'(
(b)

FeminineAllure
07-16-2007, 01:12 PM
Bahahahaha...lame.



Who said us real butches aren't human?..do we eat shit?,and a wide variety of other things?.
(don't answer that)


I'm a butch,but i aint a glamourous one,just a macho one that will date ''women'' and wear anything i wish to..but in a classy sort of way you could say.
And believe it or not that's enough for some to say i'm not a real butch.
But i laugh in those ''femmes'' faces who can stand there and compare me to some actress who gets paid to cut her hair short and act ''mannish''..that's hollywood baby,what?,you can't handle the real thing?.
It's not that i'm ''not butch'' anymore,it's just that it takes too much time to impress your kind these days,and i'm much happier now just dressing down and going whatever direction i want for the day,night,for the remaining of my life.
Oh sometimes i might wear a shirt and tie,a suit with style,my hair slick back nice,some days it's just a wifebeater and jeans..but i'm truly not trying to be anything but myself,people should try it.
It's a great feeling to not care what people (mostly the inexperienced) think about you,and truly not caring about what people think is not being extravagant and gaudy with my attitude,its just the loss of fear of ''looking like a butch.''
In a shorter sentence..
I'm saving my heart for a genuine femme who will recognize a real butch when she see's one..Thank Goddess for Real Femmes..


Love yous all
(k) (f) (k)

:'(
(b)

So to sum this all up in an even shorter sentence...
You are a "real butch" and any of us femmes who may have found any of these butches listed attractive are not "real or genuine femmes?":s
Thank God for Secure Butches.

Kitten
07-16-2007, 01:23 PM
Bahahahaha...lame.

...I'm a butch,but i aint a glamourous one,just a macho one that will date ''women'' and wear anything i wish to...you can't handle the real thing?
...

I'm saving my heart for a genuine femme who will recognize a real butch when she see's one..Thank Goddess for Real Femmes...

?

From your post one would infer that any butch who isn't the kind of butch you are, isn't the "real thing", and any femme who doesn't recognize/prefer your kind of butch, isn't genuine or real? :|

Surely you meant to say something else? We all understand here that there are many different kinds of butches, and that there are many different kinds of femmes, yes?

Although only a few of the "butches" listed in the poll above actually identify as butch, I'm sure there are lots of real life butches who identify with those women in many ways, and are pleased to see themselves reflected in the media. In the same way, there are all kinds of people (femmes included) who find the women represented above, attractive.

I hope you didn't mean to say that they're not real/genuine femmes because they may not find you and your way of being butch attractive.

PrincessFluff
07-16-2007, 01:29 PM
:s Wow :o




Bahahahaha...lame.





Who said us real butches aren't human?..do we eat shit?,and a wide variety of other things?.
(don't answer that)


I'm a butch,but i aint a glamourous one,just a macho one that will date ''women'' and wear anything i wish to..but in a classy sort of way you could say.
And believe it or not that's enough for some to say i'm not a real butch.
But i laugh in those ''femmes'' faces who can stand there and compare me to some actress who gets paid to cut her hair short and act ''mannish''..that's hollywood baby,what?,you can't handle the real thing?.
It's not that i'm ''not butch'' anymore,it's just that it takes too much time to impress your kind these days,and i'm much happier now just dressing down and going whatever direction i want for the day,night,for the remaining of my life.
Oh sometimes i might wear a shirt and tie,a suit with style,my hair slick back nice,some days it's just a wifebeater and jeans..but i'm truly not trying to be anything but myself,people should try it.
It's a great feeling to not care what people (mostly the inexperienced) think about you,and truly not caring about what people think is not being extravagant and gaudy with my attitude,its just the loss of fear of ''looking like a butch.''
In a shorter sentence..
I'm saving my heart for a genuine femme who will recognize a real butch when she see's one..Thank Goddess for Real Femmes..


Love yous all
(k) (f) (k)


:'(


(b)

hollylewya
07-16-2007, 01:44 PM
I read the article early this morning when Joe first posted it, and I thought, "Huh, I must be really sleepy or something, because that just made me really crabby"

But no, it wasn't just being sleepy...it still makes me crabby and gives me the oogy feeling

For sooo many reasons

A butch scale?

A queer channel rating non queers by how queer presenting they are?

A non-ID'd butch winning a 'who's the butchest' poll? When there's butch ID'd butches in the poll?

There's more


I Think I Need A Hug,
Dylan

Apocalipstic
07-16-2007, 01:48 PM
The 15 Hottest Butches are on this website and not out in the media! :D ;)

I've seen a lot of them in person.

Even dated some of them!

;)

QueenofQueens
07-16-2007, 01:48 PM
Yay! Where ya been? :)


,
I read the article early this morning when Joe first posted it, and I thought, "Huh, I must be really sleepy or something, because that just made me really crabby"

But no, it wasn't just being sleepy...it still makes me crabby and gives me the oogy feeling

For sooo many reasons

A butch scale?

A queer channel rating non queers by how queer presenting they are?

A non-ID'd butch winning a 'who's the butchest' poll? When there's butch ID'd butches in the poll?

There's more


I Think I Need A Hug,
Dylan

FeminineAllure
07-16-2007, 01:49 PM
I read the article early this morning when Joe first posted it, and I thought, "Huh, I must be really sleepy or something, because that just made me really crabby"

But no, it wasn't just being sleepy...it still makes me crabby and gives me the oogy feeling

For sooo many reasons

A butch scale?

A queer channel rating non queers by how queer presenting they are?

A non-ID'd butch winning a 'who's the butchest' poll? When there's butch ID'd butches in the poll?

There's more


I Think I Need A Hug,
Dylan

Here you go Dylan>>>(z) oops I meant to put an avatar of a femme.

QueenofQueens
07-16-2007, 01:50 PM
The 15 Hottest Butches are on this website and not out in the media! :D ;)

I've seen a lot of them in person.

Even dated some of them!

;)

They aren't all on this website....
I live with numeero uno. (l) ;)

Apocalipstic
07-16-2007, 01:53 PM
They aren't all on this website....
I live with numeero uno. (l) ;)


OK, they are here or we are dating them. :D :D :D :D :D :D

Hey, I thought I had numero uno? Co-numero unos???? ;)

Sophisticated1
07-16-2007, 01:57 PM
Bahahahaha...lame.



Who said us real butches aren't human?

(Um nobody)

..do we eat shit?,and a wide variety of other things?.
(don't answer that)


I'm a butch,but i aint a glamourous one,just a macho one that will date ''women'' and wear anything i wish to..but in a classy sort of way you could say.

(Okay, then just go on with your bad self)

And believe it or not that's enough for some to say i'm not a real butch.
But i laugh in those ''femmes'' faces who can stand there and compare me to some actress who gets paid to cut her hair short and act ''mannish''..that's hollywood baby,what?,you can't handle the real thing?.

(:s I don't think anybody is looking to handle anything dude. Why so defensive?)


It's not that i'm ''not butch'' anymore,it's just that it takes too much time to impress your kind
(your kind??:s )

these days,and i'm much happier now just dressing down and going whatever direction i want for the day,night,for the remaining of my life.
Oh sometimes i might wear a shirt and tie,a suit with style,my hair slick back nice,some days it's just a wifebeater and jeans..but i'm truly not trying to be anything but myself,people should try it.
It's a great feeling to not care what people (mostly the inexperienced) think about you,and truly not caring about what people think is not being extravagant and gaudy with my attitude,its just the loss of fear of ''looking like a butch.''

(It seems if there was really no fear of "looking like a butch" then there would be no need to try and put "their kind" in their place, no?)

In a shorter sentence..
I'm saving my heart for a genuine femme who will recognize a real butch when she see's one..Thank Goddess for Real Femmes..


Love yous all
(k) (f) (k)

:'(
(b)

(The green stuff above is mine)
Umm… I ah ….must have missed the supposed faux femmes that were making the personal comparisons of particular butches and the actors/celebrities in question. Have you had a lot of personal experiences with people engaging in the assassination of your brand of butchness? Because while that sort of thing can really suck, it can also create some rather large chips to carry around on ones shoulders if one is not careful.

S1

QueenofQueens
07-16-2007, 01:59 PM
OK, they are here or we are dating them. :D :D :D :D :D :D

Hey, I thought I had numero uno? Co-numero unos???? ;)

Yeah! I knew that would start a brawl! ;)
Cat fight tonight! Do I look too butch with this broken bottle in my hand?
Never mind, maybe I can get on the list now too!Whee!

Apocalipstic
07-16-2007, 02:06 PM
Yeah! I knew that would start a brawl! ;)
Cat fight tonight! Do I look too butch with this broken bottle in my hand?
Never mind, maybe I can get on the list now too!Whee!

Ya are pretty hot with that broken bottle! ;)

Sophisticated1
07-16-2007, 02:12 PM
Yeah! I knew that would start a brawl! ;)
Cat fight tonight! Do I look too butch with this broken bottle in my hand?
Never mind, maybe I can get on the list now too!Whee!

Oh most certainly. I think that, in and of itself makes you one of the BBB's ie: "broken bottle butches" They are making a movie about them actually, Broken Bottle Mountain. It is about a taboo love affair between two butches. Perhaps you should audition...;)

S1

QueenofQueens
07-16-2007, 02:16 PM
Oh most certainly. I think that, in and of itself makes you one of the BBB's ie: "broken bottle butches" They are making a movie about them actually, Broken Bottle Mountain. It is about a taboo love affair between two butches. Perhaps you should audition...;)

S1

What do they do with the bottles...and why are they broken? <:o) :o (a) ;)

Sophisticated1
07-16-2007, 02:20 PM
What do they do with the bottles...and why are they broken? <:o) :o (a) ;)

LOL I can't say.... It would ruin the movie. :-# But... I do know that no "butches" real, portrayed or animated will be harmed in any way during the making of the film.

QueenofQueens
07-16-2007, 02:22 PM
LOL I can't say.... It would ruin the movie. :-# But... I do know that no "butches" real, portrayed or animated will be harmed in any way during the making of the film.

Good! I'd hate to have to call PETOB* 8o|













* People for the ethical treatment of butches.

Kasino
07-16-2007, 02:29 PM
(The green stuff above is mine)
Umm… I ah ….must have missed the supposed faux femmes that were making the personal comparisons of particular butches and the actors/celebrities in question. Have you had a lot of personal experiences with people engaging in the assassination of your brand of butchness? Because while that sort of thing can really suck, it can also create some rather large chips to carry around on ones shoulders if one is not careful.

S1


Hi Sophisticated1


You seemed to understand what i was saying,but can you write it in english for me the above post bro.
I can't seem to understand what it is your saying..???:|


Large chips??


I need a drink too.

LadyMerrick
07-16-2007, 02:29 PM
The 15 Hottest Butches are on this website and not out in the media! :D ;)

I've seen a lot of them in person.

Even dated some of them!

;)

Exactly :)
When I saw the title I thought..How did Joe get a hold of my private journal !

Sophisticated1
07-16-2007, 02:32 PM
Good! I'd hate to have to call PETOB* 8o|













* People for the ethical treatment of butches.


Oh yes! I have heard of them! Didn’t they once storm a mall and try to free all the butches they found being forced to wiff test scented ointments in the bath and body store?

S1

Sophisticated1
07-16-2007, 02:47 PM
Hi Sophisticated1


You seemed to understand what i was saying,but can you write it in english for me the above post bro.
I can't seem to understand what it is your saying..???:|


Large chips??


I need a drink too.


8-) Umm.. yes, English… I ahhh… ^o) I don’t know… I just …I…I mean…

Here (b) ...... it will be alright.

S1

hollylewya
07-16-2007, 02:50 PM
Perhaps, I've misread something, but I gathered Kasino was speaking to the fact that so many in the poll were NOT butches, and hence "not 'real' (but fictional) butches"


Kasino, Am I Mistaken?,
Dylan

Kyssme
07-16-2007, 03:40 PM
Queen Latifa is way hot, and even hotter with a machine gun.



a-fucking-men!!!!!! :P

BestButchBoy
07-16-2007, 03:47 PM
I think maybe I'm a bit old fashioned... but I prefer the classic butch to any of the others, especially to the LA Butch. No one I would date would wear eyeliner unless dressing like a pirate for halloween. I'm just a picky bitch like that.




OMG...this made me laugh out loud!

BB

GemmeFemme
07-16-2007, 03:49 PM
Sabrina Matthews (http://www.sabrinamatthews.com/) - comic, currently on Last comic Standing

BMW


OMG! I almost fell outta my seat when Sabrina came to the stage. I held my breath until she finished her set and KILLED IT! I'm so excited she's moved on.

MsLinus
07-16-2007, 03:49 PM
The 15 Hottest Butches are on this website and not out in the media! :D ;)

I've seen a lot of them in person.

Even dated some of them!

;)

Somehow, I can't imagine it being only 15. It's such a limiting number..

;)

Concrete_Angel
07-16-2007, 03:55 PM
butches? where? (n)

8o|


just because I express butch one way absolutely doesn't mean someone else will. If any of these people identify as butch, who am I to question their vision and expression of theirself.

THANK YOU! Mr. Spade. :)

How many threads have we argued, countered and stated in, that BUTCH has NO look and NO particular action? Then why can't these particular women BE butch? I agree it would be nice if the list included people who openly identify as butch but it also is being said, again, that *this makes you butch or not butch or...* Haven't we all established that nothing can *make* you butch or *make you unbutch?

Natalie the pure mentioned Michelle Rodriguez. *smoking hot butch* She carries herself, speaks out and has mannerisms of, what everyone is calling, butch. Michael Michelle, from both E.R. and How To Lose A Guy In 10 days, is sooo smoking hot and looks and acts *butch*, yet by some definitions in here, would not be butch at all.

I am flabbergasted that people can still be using qualifiers for butch. :s


I would not kick any one of them out of my bedroom(y)

Me either honey. ;)

Well except for Shane.. Blech, but Daniela Sea, WOOT! :D Never!!


[CENTER]Bahahahaha...lame.I'm a butch,but i aint a glamourous one,just a macho one that will date ''women'' and wear anything i wish to..but in a classy sort of way you could say.
And believe it or not that's enough for some to say i'm not a real butch.
But i laugh in those ''femmes'' faces who can stand there and compare me to some actress who gets paid to cut her hair short and act ''mannish''..that's hollywood baby,what?,you can't handle the real thing
?.]


Hey Kasino? Welcome to a FEMME's everyday life! How often do you sexualize feminine women as femmes? Ms. Jolie was mentioned. DAILY a femme is compared to *Hollywood Beauties* who have 3 make-up artists and hair dressers and people dressing them right down to their undies. V/S models, case in point. Tell me that butches do not look at them and see them as *hot femmes*. Do you all think they just *look like that*? They are blown, taped, shined and cropped, and shadowed, to *look like that*.

WHY then, can we not see someone in drag, as butch, and not think of them as a hot butch? If you think it is wrong to think a butch is hot based on *hollywood-ization* of them, then throw away your illusions of all the feminine women that get the same well coiffed treatment!

Sorry, but we have been through this, *This is butch and this is femme*, thing a billion times. If they take the lead, make me feel all girlie and protected, know how to handle me in that hot way, and I feel drawn to them as BUTCH, then they are, BUTCH!

CA~

Sophisticated1
07-16-2007, 03:58 PM
Perhaps, I've misread something, but I gathered Kasino was speaking to the fact that so many in the poll were NOT butches, and hence "not 'real' (but fictional) butches"


Kasino, Am I Mistaken?,
Dylan

Yes, perhaps. But the poll basically looked at butches or portrayals of butches in the media, celebrities of sorts, not your home-grown butch on the street:


“ the hottest 15 butches in film, TV and music. …. Butch lesbian characters in film and TV, as well as lesbian and bisexual female musicians”

In such a poll why would one choose an “actual butch” over a “portrayed butch?” Perhaps the portrayal of butch was so well done that it exceeded the “hotness” of the real thing. I mean really if Hollywood could work its magic and butch up Angelina Jolie or Charlize Theron for a butch roll, I would vote for them over me


I think the poll in and of it self is quiet obviously a wee bit silly. Rather like believing that the TV audience judging Dancing With The Stars has clue one about what constitutes actual good dancing. “Hottest butches” is about as speculative as People Magazines “hottest men of the year.” “Hot” and “butch” are not things for which they are actually handing out certificates, so both are often in the eye of the beholder. (And before a fight ensues over the importance of “self identification,” in a contest in which others judge you, all the self ID’ing in the world will not help you if the judges do not read you as butch.)

It is no surprise that butches, (not butch-esques, or butch-sort-of’s) are completely under represented in the media. Like it or not, in this culture, we are not “mainstream” and will not be honestly, thoughtfully or tastefully portrayed in the mainstream media until images and expectations of women in general change. … Until then characters like “Shane” and people like Joan Jett are called “butch.”

Yes, I would love to see more butch representation in film, TV and the like. The fact that some folks can and do appreciate what is currently available in the media however, does not make me angry at, or dismissive of, the femmes who like said “butches.” All I was saying was that media butches and the femmes who love them, do not threaten my “butchness.”

That’s all.

S1

PrincessFluff
07-16-2007, 03:58 PM
Melissa Leo in Homicide

Kyssme
07-16-2007, 04:00 PM
another thing- these are only American media-butches ...

here's a hot one for you from Russia:

Elena Pogrebizhskaya ... a musician. the name of her band- "Butch"

http://files.butch.ru/video/vstanu.wmv

Femfare
07-16-2007, 04:02 PM
Bahahahaha...lame.



Who said us real butches aren't human?..do we eat shit?,and a wide variety of other things?.
(don't answer that)


I'm a butch,but i aint a glamourous one,just a macho one that will date ''women'' and wear anything i wish to..but in a classy sort of way you could say.
And believe it or not that's enough for some to say i'm not a real butch.
But i laugh in those ''femmes'' faces who can stand there and compare me to some actress who gets paid to cut her hair short and act ''mannish''..that's hollywood baby,what?,you can't handle the real thing?.
It's not that i'm ''not butch'' anymore,it's just that it takes too much time to impress your kind these days,and i'm much happier now just dressing down and going whatever direction i want for the day,night,for the remaining of my life.
Oh sometimes i might wear a shirt and tie,a suit with style,my hair slick back nice,some days it's just a wifebeater and jeans..but i'm truly not trying to be anything but myself,people should try it.
It's a great feeling to not care what people (mostly the inexperienced) think about you,and truly not caring about what people think is not being extravagant and gaudy with my attitude,its just the loss of fear of ''looking like a butch.''
In a shorter sentence..
I'm saving my heart for a genuine femme who will recognize a real butch when she see's one..Thank Goddess for Real Femmes..


Love yous all
(k) (f) (k)

:'(
(b)

Yeah. You go on with your rockin' real butch self. And you know what, I wish many a real femme that has the same exact mind set as your as to what is femme. Cuz folks like yous belong together.

Outside of my best wishes for you, I think what you wrote is extremely defeating for this community. But that comes from one of the biggest sissy butches there is among these parts...just ask my Daddy June. She'll set you straight. No pun intended, of course.

Shyfemmekat
07-16-2007, 04:04 PM
I actually thought of Sabrina as one of the Butches that has had more success
in as far as the breaking through the media, than I have seen in a while.
(y)
She is hella funny too!
<:o)
:[


*Nodding head* She IS funny.

I'll mention a favorite musician of mine:

Kara Barnard
http://www.karabarnard.com/bio/index.htm

SFK

KwanYin
07-16-2007, 04:05 PM
Me either honey. ;)




[B][FONT="Palatino Linotype"][SIZE="3"][COLOR="hotpink"]Hey Kasino? Welcome to a FEMME's everyday life! How often do you sexualize feminine women as femmes? Ms. Jolie was mentioned. DAILY a femme is compared to *Hollywood Beauties* who have 3 make-up artists and hair dressers and people dressing them right down to their undies. V/S models, case in point. Tell me that butches do not look at them and see them as *hot femmes*. Do you all think they just *look like that*? They are blown, taped, shined and cropped, and shadowed, to *look like that*.

WHY then, can we not see someone in drag, as butch, and not think of them as a hot butch? If you think it is wrong to think a butch is hot based on *hollywood-ization* of them, then throw away your illusions of all the feminine women that get the same well coiffed treatment!

Sorry, but we have been through this, *This is butch and this is femme*, thing a billion times. If they take the lead, make me feel all girlie and protected, know how to handle me in that hot way, and I feel drawn to them as BUTCH, then they are, BUTCH!

CA~


Well said. Especially the part about one of the banes of my existence, the Femme-ing of feminine women. :s

To the last part I would just add: "and they ID as butch".

How about that novel concept? Let's see a list of butches who ID as butch.

Shyfemmekat
07-16-2007, 04:10 PM
Where are the big greying butches in this poll? :'(

I think there are lots of butches on this site that have more movie star looks and talent than any of those in the poll. :D

Personally I might have coffee with one of the ones in the poll but that would be it. (c)

SFK

Concrete_Angel
07-16-2007, 04:11 PM
Well said. Especially the part about one of the banes of my existence, the Femme-ing of feminine women. :s

To the last part I would just add: "and they ID as butch".



YES, a needed add. If they ID as butch, then by all rights, that no one can revoke, they are, butch!

CA~

OutlawDaddy
07-16-2007, 04:12 PM
I was all the way over in another thread and I could still hear someone using the term wife beater...and then... the collective sighs and gasps!

Shyfemmekat
07-16-2007, 04:18 PM
I was all the way over in another thread and I could still hear someone using the term wife beater...and then... the collective sighs and gasps!

I have to admit, dear friend, that I despise "wife beater". Maybe because such a term brings back memories of domestic violence.

Hmmm. Just my .02, and a chocolate covered raisin. *shrug*

SFK

OutlawDaddy
07-16-2007, 04:24 PM
I have to admit, dear friend, that I despise "wife beater". Maybe because such a term brings back memories of domestic violence.

Hmmm. Just my .02, and a chocolate covered raisin. *shrug*

SFK

It's one of my biggest pet peeves, it lacks a certain sophistication and general awareness of the power of language. Using it shows general disregard to a litany of folks, women and Italians to start. But then again...apparently "Real Butches" have had their permission slip signed to use it at will....I missed the memos (all of them) OD

BlistexLez
07-16-2007, 04:25 PM
Here you go Dylan>>>(z) oops I meant to put an avatar of a femme.

a "real" femme, cuz those are the only ones I deal with :|

*waving flag to indicate comment was not intended to be interpreted as my actual behavior*

BrotherBilly
07-16-2007, 04:31 PM
I came running in here to see if I made the list ...Thought perhaps free food and sodas and stuff ...Maybe next time ;)

Femfare
07-16-2007, 04:32 PM
It's one of my biggest pet peeves, it lacks a certain sophistication and general awareness of the power of language. Using it shows general disregard to a litany of folks, women and Italians to start. But then again...apparently "Real Butches" have had their permission slip signed to use it at will....I missed the memos (all of them) OD

Italians?

:|

Kyssme
07-16-2007, 04:34 PM
I came running in here to see if I made the list ...Thought perhaps free food and sodas and stuff ...Maybe next time ;)

You're #1 on my list, Honey (l)

even though You're not exactly a "butch" anymore :|

BlistexLez
07-16-2007, 04:35 PM
If they take the lead, make me feel all girlie and protected, know how to handle me in that hot way, and I feel drawn to them as BUTCH, then they are, BUTCH!

CA~

I could have quoted the whole dang post cuz you rock CA!!!
*MWAH!!!!*
(f)

The_Lady_Snow
07-16-2007, 04:41 PM
Bahahahaha...lame.



Who said us real butches aren't human?..do we eat shit?,and a wide variety of other things?.
(don't answer that)


I'm a butch,but i aint a glamourous one,just a macho one that will date ''women'' and wear anything i wish to..but in a classy sort of way you could say.
And believe it or not that's enough for some to say i'm not a real butch.
But i laugh in those ''femmes'' faces who can stand there and compare me to some actress who gets paid to cut her hair short and act ''mannish''..that's hollywood baby,what?,you can't handle the real thing?.
It's not that i'm ''not butch'' anymore,it's just that it takes too much time to impress your kind these days,and i'm much happier now just dressing down and going whatever direction i want for the day,night,for the remaining of my life.
Oh sometimes i might wear a shirt and tie,a suit with style,my hair slick back nice,some days it's just a wifebeater and jeans..but i'm truly not trying to be anything but myself,people should try it.
It's a great feeling to not care what people (mostly the inexperienced) think about you,and truly not caring about what people think is not being extravagant and gaudy with my attitude,its just the loss of fear of ''looking like a butch.''
In a shorter sentence..
I'm saving my heart for a genuine femme who will recognize a real butch when she see's one..Thank Goddess for Real Femmes..


Love yous all
(k) (f) (k)

:'(
(b)




I would like to ask

What the fuck is a genuine femme or what the fuck is a real femme?


Did I not get the memo?

Do they wear certain brands of clothes?

Haircuts?

Did I somehow not get into this or was I left out on purpose?


Snow who is sick of hearing the term real femme8o|

joectigger
07-16-2007, 04:45 PM
What a variety of posts in here. :)

This first thing that I found odd was that they mentioned how each of the judges identify. Three were femmes and one was a butch. I would assume (yep big what if right there) that if someone self identified as Butch or Femme, they would probably know more about what is Butch. Wrong assumption that might be if they were only using the lesbo flicks and women that are not typically feminine in appearance.

I was disappointed to see some that they picked as being representative of butches in the media. I've thought a lot about it today because the poll and story bothered me on some levels. I know at times we've discussed who in Hollywood maybe Femme or what leading men are reminiscent of Butches, because there are not that many Butch role models that are actual self identifying Butches. There aren't that many self identified Butches or Femmes in the media overall.

Perhaps it's that the people writing the story and doing the poll went the way of using butch as a descriptor or adjective, not as the noun and gender identity we've all grown to love and wage war over here in the forums. Do the people in the top 15 appear to be butch-like in some convuluted way or have masculinity within a female form, perhaps. It's a stretch to call them Butches.

I was disappointed that they didn't select people that were perhaps a little lesser known but yet still identified as Butches, and were not just as butch looking or playing one on TV.

I wasn't exactly pleased to see "handiness" as a trait to which these people were judged as a characteristic of being a Butch, because I know I am not mechanically inclined. It would have been a great follow up to have people that actively identify as Butches to say how much hogwash all of that was and how Butches come in the vast array that we do and how we run the gambit of being kick ass moms, nurturers, caring, as well as being extremely debonaire and fashion forward, and not just in an A shirt.

Then I was very happy that they were recognizing Butches in any way shape or form, cuz that just doesn't happen. It's not very often that we are even depicted positively in the media.


We definitely need more Butches in the media. (y)

TheFrozenNorth
07-16-2007, 04:47 PM
I donno, I mean it may piss a few poeple off that I am gonna say this....and frankly I don't care.....I am so sick of these pseudo-butches that society chucks in the same categorization with those of us who live, breathe, sleep, and ARE butch.

Nothing on that list even remotely struck me as butch....and I mean NOTHING.

Butch is a way of life, not a fucking wardrobe or a "part" one plays before the camera.

Nuff said.

OutlawDaddy
07-16-2007, 04:48 PM
Italians?

:|

A-shirt (http://216.239.51.104/search?q=cache:OtW5Vorf0K4J:www.answers.com/topic/sleeveless-shirt+italian+Wife+Beaters+Guinea+Tees&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us&lr=lang_en%7Clang_it)

An A-shirt, also colloquially known as a wifebeater, Guinea-T, Dago-tee, or Italian dinner (or smoking) jacket, is the most common type of sleeveless undershirt. A-shirts are popular in the street gang culture of North America, hip hop culture, Italian American culture, the contemporary skinhead scene, and in the punk subculture. The origin of the term wifebeater is from the stereotype that the shirts are worn predominantly by men who beat their wives, as portrayed in pop culture. When worn by a woman, the item is sometimes described as a a boybeater or boy beater. This term was supposedly made popular by the female pop punk musician Avril Lavigne. The term is also used within the gay community. Use of the term wifebeater to describe an article of clothing (as opposed to its literal use) is relatively new, and may stem from the stereotype of abusive husbands presented in movies such as the 1992 film Radio Flyer. The term has been denounced by the National Organization for Women, who say it trivializes domestic violence. The phrases "Dago-tee" and "Guinea T" come from the stereotype that people of Italian descent often wear A-shirts.

Concrete_Angel
07-16-2007, 04:54 PM
We definitely need more Butches in the media. (y)

Woo hoo.. I agree. More butches in general, media, real life. (a) I won't complain. ;)

It would actually be kinda FUN to do a 15 top butches list, but it would cause World War III, in that some would not get that individual perception is okay. I can think a butch is hot without expecting another soul too. There are LOTS of factors for hotness in butchdom, looks being just one, and even that is subjective and on a case by case basis. ;)


CA~

The_Lady_Snow
07-16-2007, 04:58 PM
I donno, I mean it may piss a few poeple off that I am gonna say this....and frankly I don't care.....I am so sick of these pseudo-butches that society chucks in the same categorization with those of us who live, breathe, sleep, and ARE butch.

Nothing on that list even remotely struck me as butch....and I mean NOTHING.

Butch is a way of life, not a fucking wardrobe or a "part" one plays before the camera.

Nuff said.


The same frustration you feel Frosty is the same one we femmes deal with each and every fucking day when I have to hear butches or anyone else refer to a straight chick be she an actress or someone one else as FEMME..

That is My gender .....

Maybe with that said and with what Ms CA said you guys will get it....

Daddyboy
07-16-2007, 04:58 PM
Italians?

:|

Yo, you talkin to me;)

Femfare
07-16-2007, 05:04 PM
Yo, you talkin to me;)

hahahahaha

I wanted OD to come back and splain the wife beater and Italian thing. He kinda lost me there as I didn't know the term "wife beater" has to do with Italians.

Did someone forget to send me that memo?

scentsofautumn
07-16-2007, 05:05 PM
I volunteer for a spot on the no media top 15. :|

Have to say though...ummm that plumber butch kinda turned me on but then again a tool belt on a jean wearing gal always did. :P


Woo hoo.. I agree. More butches in general, media, real life. (a) I won't complain. ;)

CA~

The_Lady_Snow
07-16-2007, 05:06 PM
hahahahaha

I wanted OD to come back and splain the wife beater and Italian thing. He kinda lost me there as I didn't know the term "wife beater" has to do with Italians.

Did someone forget to send me that memo?


Maybe it got lost with the real femme memo I never got.............

Shyfemmekat
07-16-2007, 05:08 PM
I have seen at least four butches post on this thread so far that would make the Unofficial Top 15....

SFK

Femfare
07-16-2007, 05:08 PM
Maybe it got lost with the real femme memo I never got.............

Check your desk again.

Then I can chase you around it...like a real butch would...

;)

TheFrozenNorth
07-16-2007, 05:10 PM
The same frustration you feel Frosty is the same one we femmes deal with each and every fucking day when I have to hear butches or anyone else refer to a straight chick be she an actress or someone one else as FEMME..

That is My gender .....

Maybe with that said and with what Ms CA said you guys will get it....


I totally hear you here, and I agree, femme is a gender, (and the one I prefer if I may say so) not a label for gender. So often the terms butch and femme are used as adjectives rather than nouns. And well I know I am not an adjective, and I am pretty sure you aren't either.

Daddyboy
07-16-2007, 05:10 PM
Check your desk again.

Then I can chase you around it...like a real butch would...

;)


Oh thats it! If you're chasing I am so taking you off my "hot butch" list:o

Femfare
07-16-2007, 05:15 PM
Oh thats it! If you're chasing I am so taking you off my "hot butch" list:o

hahahahha

Well, I have a pretty daddy already. ;)

But, I am willing to put you on my Italian hot butch genuine list, if you like. Just let me do the chasing...I have to lead, too. And did I mention I have big biceps to hold you with...?

:|

Daddyboy
07-16-2007, 05:17 PM
hahahahha

Well, I have a pretty daddy already. ;)

But, I am willing to put you on my Italian hot butch genuine list, if you like. Just let me do the chasing...I have to lead, too. And did I mention I have big biceps to hold you with...?

:|

ROFLMAO I will never live this down I'm sure!:D

joectigger
07-16-2007, 05:24 PM
I totally hear you here, and I agree, femme is a gender, (and the one I prefer if I may say so) not a label for gender. So often the terms butch and femme are used as adjectives rather than nouns. And well I know I am not an adjective, and I am pretty sure you aren't either.

I agree with you Frosty.

I don't think the pollsters were discussing gender in the story. Perhaps some eye candy at best, so it's hard to have the conversation when we're all on different pages from the beginning.

TheFrozenNorth
07-16-2007, 05:37 PM
I agree with you Frosty.

I don't think the pollsters were discussing gender in the story. Perhaps some eye candy at best, so it's hard to have the conversation when we're all on different pages from the beginning.

How true.....hard to even discuss gender, gender identity, and all the other myriad of topics of like when so many of us are coming to the table with differing definations, and differing preferences.

The_Lady_Snow
07-16-2007, 05:37 PM
Check your desk again.

Then I can chase you around it...like a real butch would...

;)



and then I can giggle and be all helpless and fall into your arms and giggle some more....

tee hee

Damned Queen
07-16-2007, 05:40 PM
Did they do a good job? Are there characteristics that were not covered by the judges? Were there any on the list that don't do it for you and any that you would have added instead? OP joectigger

My, my, my. How old be I! :) Em, in answer to your questions there joectigger...NO, they did not do a good job. Yes, any and all butch characteristics were not covered by the judges, such as not one butch personna. For instance, I am always, and no offense anyone please, not relating to the term soft in relativity to a butch. As in Butches Be Hard. :) And only one Butch does it for me...the DK!:D
Just what is knowing to me!;)

Kasino
07-16-2007, 05:44 PM
Perhaps, I've misread something, but I gathered Kasino was speaking to the fact that so many in the poll were NOT butches, and hence "not 'real' (but fictional) butches"


Kasino, Am I Mistaken?,
Dylan

Lol

Yeah,that's partly what i was trying to state dylan..too sharp bro (b)

And i wasn't talking about anyone on this site not being a real femme.

Hence the title.

Carry On..

The_Lady_Snow
07-16-2007, 05:47 PM
Lol

Yeah,that's partly what i was trying to state dylan..too sharp bro (b)

And i wasn't talking about anyone on this site not being a real femme.

Hence the title.

Carry On..




Umm Mcfly???


Anyone in there???


The term real femme is offending inside and outside of the sight............8o|

crack11974
07-16-2007, 05:51 PM
You guys, it clearly is about butch CHARACTERS for the most part. I know they throw in Ellen, Melissa and KD. But when they are talking about a character in a movie, I'm sorry, but I'm just not offended that the actor might not be butch-identified, b/c it's the character they are talking about here, not the actor.

And all the ballyhoo about what is or isn't butch....I find that to be very late and I'm over it.

joectigger
07-16-2007, 05:51 PM
How about taking the discussion of what a real femme is to a different thread and how that phrase may be offensive to some if not a lot of people on this site.

Please and thank you.

ROOSTER
07-16-2007, 05:52 PM
Actual butches are waaaaaaay too threatening for the media and society in general. It stems back to misogynistic views held by a patriarchal society and Hollywood.

Women ..even gay women, portrayed in hollywood, must still be considered ...how shall I say this...FUCKABLE..by MEN.

Henceforth a butch woman...looks way toooooo masculine and therefore can not be sexualized by men...but are in fact sexy to some women....just perplexes and angers them...not to mention threatens them and..shrinks thier dick. We look like men ...but we certainly cannot be treated equal to men...cause we're still women and women must be oppressed,sexualized and kept in thier place....Butch women..DO NOT COMPUTE in a patriarchal society. Not acceptable.

Soooooo better to pretend we don't exist,making our actual, real life existance that much harder and braver. We blaze paths with no role models before us, just by being who we are.

The reverse holds true for femmes..who are considered attractive by males...but who do NOT want Biomen. Again...pissed off guys who feel the world should revolve around them and thier sense of privilige,that butches and femmes both deny.

Too bad for the oppressive patriarchal society, if we can't be put in some neat little catagory and we make men uncomfortable...we're here,we're queer.....Thay can FUCK THEMSELVES.

joectigger
07-16-2007, 05:55 PM
You make some great points Rooster.

Concrete_Angel
07-16-2007, 06:11 PM
When Hillary Swank won the award for best actress for 'Boys Don't Cry', some nasty comments were made by male actors, that they needed to cast a woman that was a little more difficult to *butch up* and then they would grant their kudos. They felt she already looked like a boy so it was no reach to *transform her* into one. How very invalidating as an actress. (n)

BTW, Chloe Sevigny played her *femme*, in that movie, and rather hotly. :)

Rooster is correct in what he says about women still having to be *F*able*. Angelina, in the movie Gia, was totally good looking, all masculine, but she was still, dressed up for Bio male America, even though the real life Gia, was openly gay.




CA~

msmoxie
07-16-2007, 06:21 PM
huh. I'm thinking that most of the 15 don't strike me as butch, though some sure do strike me as attractive. heck, i swoon over KD and QL most every day.

my take: in terms of real femme--it's a way of life, just as is butch, and sure, you can play one on tv as well as all get-out, but it sure doesn't *make* you one...and for those of us that claim either term, we get to define it for ourselves, and may need to 'splain ourselves to folks from time to time if their personal vision of "real" is more limited than our individual, personal, real life self....that is, if we feel that 'splaining ourselves to one who may want to box us in is worth our time.

it would be nice it we had more out butches, and queerfolk in general, in hollywood.

Rooster--rep points in excess for your F-able point.

joectigger
07-16-2007, 06:33 PM
You're never know whats inside here with that kind of attitude missy..who's your daddy?..he needs to keep you in check.

Runs out of here..:P



Kasino, this is just beyond disrespectful. You make a great example of what butches should not be like. Nice move making a wise crack and then running.

Sophisticated1
07-16-2007, 06:36 PM
who's your daddy?..he needs to keep you in check......

:| :| Oh dear….And we are now officially hurling into the abyss of ridiculousness and absurdity. … not to mention the abyss of :o 'uh oh hell is about to break loose.'

S1

joectigger
07-16-2007, 06:36 PM
It's really not worthy of anything breaking loose.

Kasino
07-16-2007, 06:39 PM
It's really not worthy of anything breaking loose.


I know,she just brought it out in me..only a few femmes can (l)

Ok,out of here now,lol.

joectigger
07-16-2007, 06:43 PM
huh. I'm thinking that most of the 15 don't strike me as butch, though some sure do strike me as attractive. heck, i swoon over KD and QL most every day.

my take: in terms of real femme--it's a way of life, just as is butch, and sure, you can play one on tv as well as all get-out, but it sure doesn't *make* you one...and for those of us that claim either term, we get to define it for ourselves, and may need to 'splain ourselves to folks from time to time if their personal vision of "real" is more limited than our individual, personal, real life self....that is, if we feel that 'splaining ourselves to one who may want to box us in is worth our time.

it would be nice it we had more out butches, and queerfolk in general, in hollywood.

Rooster--rep points in excess for your F-able point.

Great point Msmoxie.

Perhaps it's that shorthand vocabulary we often talk about here. When they say butch they mean not feminine appearing gay woman, instead of all of the various things that encompasses the Butch identity. Not the same even with an A shirt. ;)

Raspberry
07-16-2007, 06:43 PM
I know,she just brought it out in me..only a few femmes can (l)

Ok,out of here now,lol.





I got reports on your post before you deleted it. While I appreciate your decision to delete your first, offensive post, next time think it through a bit longer and avoid posting it.

You were out of line getting personal like that with another member. You are out of line here in blaming it on her. Your bad behavior is your own responsibility. Do something like it again and you will get a break from the site.

Everyone else:

Focus on the topics not each other. Okay?

Raspberry

koop
07-16-2007, 06:53 PM
[quote=joectigger;2483841]What a variety of posts in here. :)

This first thing that I found odd was that they mentioned how each of the judges identify. Three were femmes and one was a butch. I would assume (yep big what if right there) that if someone self identified as Butch or Femme, they would probably know more about what is Butch. Wrong assumption that might be if they were only using the lesbo flicks and women that are not typically feminine in appearance.

I/quote]

What people have to remember is that butch and femme can be one thing in the lesbian community, primarily adjectives, and a different thing within our community where they are nouns.

Two completely different worlds.

msmoxie
07-16-2007, 06:53 PM
Thanks.

The term "A shirt" makes me giggle--makes me think that wearing anything but it is the same as going "shirtless" :o

still, it's that's better than the WB phrase, which boils my blood and always has, and all the other derogatory terms associated with it.

the A shirt: it's not just a tank top anymore.


Great point Msmoxie.

Perhaps it's that shorthand vocabulary we often talk about here. When they say butch they mean not feminine appearing gay woman, instead of all of the various things that encompasses the Butch identity. Not the same even with an A shirt. ;)

Sophisticated1
07-16-2007, 06:57 PM
huh. I'm thinking that most of the 15 don't strike me as butch, though some sure do strike me as attractive. heck, i swoon over KD and QL most every day.


lol wow "most everyday" huh? 8-) Gee who knew

;) S1

Sun
07-16-2007, 06:57 PM
Seems like Femmes are not the only ones who are invisible in the media. (n)

Sun
07-16-2007, 07:02 PM
C mon butch movie makers. We need more actual butches in the movies and butches making movies.


This Butch is working on a screenplay. (y)

Thanks for the support!

msmoxie
07-16-2007, 07:07 PM
well, now *we* all do! :)



lol wow "most everyday" huh? 8-) Gee who knew

;) S1

Sophisticated1
07-16-2007, 07:11 PM
well, now *we* all do! :)

LOL ummm, I think I let you ponder on KD (|-) ).... I'll stick with JJ and on Wednesdays we can share QL:D :D :D

(f) S1

BrotherBilly
07-16-2007, 07:11 PM
You're #1 on my list, Honey (l)

even though You're not exactly a "butch" anymore :|

Thank you :)

Sun
07-16-2007, 07:18 PM
I have to admit, dear friend, that I despise "wife beater". Maybe because such a term brings back memories of domestic violence.

Hmmm. Just my .02, and a chocolate covered raisin. *shrug*

SFK

It would be nice if we could get "terms" like "wife beater" out of our cultural vocabulary.

Thank you for pointing out the obvious reason why this
term aka name for an article of clothing, is so insensitive. (f)

Sun
07-16-2007, 07:25 PM
A-shirt (http://216.239.51.104/search?q=cache:OtW5Vorf0K4J:www.answers.com/topic/sleeveless-shirt+italian+Wife+Beaters+Guinea+Tees&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us&lr=lang_en&#37;7Clang_it)

An A-shirt, also colloquially known as a wifebeater, Guinea-T, Dago-tee, or Italian dinner (or smoking) jacket, is the most common type of sleeveless undershirt. A-shirts are popular in the street gang culture of North America, hip hop culture, Italian American culture, the contemporary skinhead scene, and in the punk subculture. The origin of the term wifebeater is from the stereotype that the shirts are worn predominantly by men who beat their wives, as portrayed in pop culture. When worn by a woman, the item is sometimes described as a a boybeater or boy beater. This term was supposedly made popular by the female pop punk musician Avril Lavigne. The term is also used within the gay community. Use of the term wifebeater to describe an article of clothing (as opposed to its literal use) is relatively new, and may stem from the stereotype of abusive husbands presented in movies such as the 1992 film Radio Flyer. The term has been denounced by the National Organization for Women, who say it trivializes domestic violence. The phrases "Dago-tee" and "Guinea T" come from the stereotype that people of Italian descent often wear A-shirts.


Lovely. A little Racism to go with my Monday night.

Where, may I ask did you get this definition from?

*note: I have been quite immersed in Italian-American culture for my entire life and I find it incredibly offensive
that anyone (whomever authored the definition) would promote such a definition. Racism is racism.

Sthrnnyer
07-16-2007, 07:34 PM
Wow... a lot has happened since I snuck in here earlier today.
The "Top 15" poll was fluff. Sure there were some classic movie butches and kudos to the real lesbians making the list, but in the end the poll was F-L-U-F-F. Eye candy for the fans, and there's nothing wrong with it, as I am sure we all like a little eye candy now and then. ;)
The spectrum for what one sees as butch over another is broad and unique as the people in this community.
As far as having more butches in the media, I hope to see them out there for younger femmes and butches to fawn over and look up to, as I wished there were when I was a kid.

Sophisticated1
07-16-2007, 07:38 PM
Lovely. A little Racism to go with my Monday night.

Where, may I ask did you get this definition from?

*note: I have been quite immersed in Italian-American culture for my entire life and I find it incredibly offensive
that anyone (whomever authored the definition) would promote such a definition. Racism is racism.




I have had the misfortune of hearing those expressions (among others) in my travels. It wasn’t being promoted as a definition when I heard it, it was just being thoughtlessly and ignorantly tossed about in much the same manner that “wife beater” is.

I agree, they are all offensive. As I read the other post, I think OD finds them equally offensive.

S1

Kasino
07-16-2007, 07:38 PM
I got reports on your post before you deleted it. While I appreciate your decision to delete your first, offensive post, next time think it through a bit longer and avoid posting it.

You were out of line getting personal like that with another member. You are out of line here in blaming it on her. Your bad behavior is your own responsibility. Do something like it again and you will get a break from the site.

Everyone else:

Focus on the topics not each other. Okay?

Raspberry


Don't that just beat all.


:|
(b)


For not bad behavior,but having a sense of humor..alittle to rough i thought,so i deleted the original..but joe grabbed it,so the OP didn't go completely.
I did so because i figured they couldn't handle it..i was right.
(think kasino THINK!,lol)


Ok,i'll do the time..how long will i be off ras?

crack11974
07-16-2007, 07:42 PM
I'm in agreement here. FLUFF. I wasn't offended by any of it. I did think it was stupid, but I wasn't offended. If a bunch of women want to write a fluffy online article about their favorite butches in tv and movies, I really don't give a crap.

What I did find offensive were people in this thread deciding who on the list was and wasn't butch and doing it in such a way as to make it look like a pissing contest. But even then, I just don't give a shit anymore. Sometimes I think it's funny to watch butches come in a thread and declare themselves the "real true butch" (while proceeding to make asses of themselves) and also to watch femmes come in and declare their butch the "real true butch" and get all haughty. It makes me laugh more than anything after all these years of watching it. It's hard for me to even be offended, though I do see where it could be offensive.





Wow... a lot has happened since I snuck in here earlier today.
The "Top 15" poll was fluff. Sure there were some classic movie butches and kudos to the real lesbians making the list, but in the end the poll was F-L-U-F-F. Eye candy for the fans, and there's nothing wrong with it, as I am sure we all like a little eye candy now and then. ;)
The spectrum for what one sees as butch over another is broad and unique as the people in this community.
As far as having more butches in the media, I hope to see them out there for younger femmes and butches to fawn over and look up to, as I wished there were when I was a kid.

aprettydress
07-16-2007, 07:47 PM
Now, are you being a real butch?

crack11974
07-16-2007, 07:50 PM
Not even just a real butch, I'm the ONE TRUE BUTCH!!!

p.s.
For whoever made that comment earlier about eyeliner, one of the most kick-ass all-time greatest butches of butches I know wears eyeliner.



Now, are you being a real butch?

thinkpink
07-16-2007, 07:53 PM
Oh my...what a lot of activity on this thread today...not that any of us have any opinions about this subject :)

May everyone feel good about their own butch or femme-ness and know that each and every one of you belongs on the top 15 hottest butch or femme lists (l)

Sophisticated1
07-16-2007, 08:00 PM
Definitions
A "Real butch"… ahh I don’t know too many incarnations to craft a working definition.

I think I am a “reel butch!”

Reel Butch:
A butch who plays or dances to a particular type of traditional Irish Music
Also a butch who loves to fish. And in rare cases, a butch who frequently staggers, sways or stumbles.

…. I don’t fish… and I never stagger so … I’ll just play on(8)

S1

FeminineAllure
07-16-2007, 08:01 PM
Lovely. A little Racism to go with my Monday night.

Where, may I ask did you get this definition from?

*note: I have been quite immersed in Italian-American culture for my entire life and I find it incredibly offensive
that anyone (whomever authored the definition) would promote such a definition. Racism is racism.




LOL!!! <And Sun you know it's not meant as a sarcastic laugh>
A little racism is easier to swallow with some Ben and Jerrys Coffee health bar crunch ice cream. I even drove out and went in the store in Betty Boop PJs to buy it.
ATTENTION: This thread may become hazardous to your diet!
Just trying to lighten things up(a)

BlistexLez
07-16-2007, 08:24 PM
I'm in agreement here. FLUFF. I wasn't offended by any of it. I did think it was stupid, but I wasn't offended. If a bunch of women want to write a fluffy online article about their favorite butches in tv and movies, I really don't give a crap.

What I did find offensive were people in this thread deciding who on the list was and wasn't butch and doing it in such a way as to make it look like a pissing contest. But even then, I just don't give a shit anymore. Sometimes I think it's funny to watch butches come in a thread and declare themselves the "real true butch" (while proceeding to make asses of themselves) and also to watch femmes come in and declare their butch the "real true butch" and get all haughty. It makes me laugh more than anything after all these years of watching it. It's hard for me to even be offended, though I do see where it could be offensive.

Crack-a-lack...I (l) you and don't care what list that puts me on (y)

Femfare
07-16-2007, 08:34 PM
OD,

Thanks for the info on the Italian reference. I asked as the only cultural definition I could come up with as far as the term "wife-beater" referenced "white trash" as part of it's "colorful" definiton, so to speak.

Serene
07-16-2007, 08:59 PM
It's interesting how society (in general) is somewhat afraid still of the butch woman and the aura they have. Maybe not so much afraid, per se, but still not quite comprehending. My own Mother asked me why I don't "find someone pretty...like me" as I stood there and stared at her incredulously. To me...Shane is NOT butch, and I barely watch the L Word as it holds no interest for me. Ellen seems more like a tom boy to me than butch.

If we had one strong butch woman represented in the media is would be a lovely thing to witness.


I do; however, confess to a wayyyy old crush on Jenny Shimizu. Oh my...yes.

~LadyJane~
07-16-2007, 09:15 PM
7. Cleo Sims (Queen Latifah) in Set It Off: The Gangsta Butch


in MY opinion, Queen La IS numbers 1-15!!!!!! YUMMY!!!!! HAWT!!!!! :P

seriously, not many of the others do it for me at all :|




p.s. i know photos can be misleading, but the panelists all seen kinda youngish ... i wonder if older butch-lovers preferences were fairly represented here.


p.p.s. i really don't like they're rating system- "handiness"? really???


Amen.. Queen La in set it off.. *drools*

kumiko
07-17-2007, 01:30 AM
Count me in the group that also thought it was fluff. I didn't find it offensive at all. Even though I do wish that queer people were used even if they weren't butch I realize that the state of our media makes that difficult.

Oh and as someone who's met Kate Moennig (Shane) I can say that she definitely pinged my butch-dar. In real life when she's not all hollywood-ready she looks like any other hot young hipster boi that I see around.

And I ditto the Elena Pogrebizhskaya pick. She's sooo hot.

I wish they'd do a hot FTM list. I'd put Lucas Silveira on that list in a heartbeat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJD4QLsohT8

angie
07-17-2007, 02:09 AM
My offering: http://www.jackiestrano.com/

For the record, when I hear the term "wife beater" I always interrupt and say loudly, "You mean wife lover right?"

It seems to work.

kumiko
07-17-2007, 02:32 AM
oh we should make our own list. I'll add: http://www.sarahbettens.com and http://www.ellis-music.com/

hollylewya
07-17-2007, 03:40 AM
Ok, I just want to make sure I've got the rules down pat

1. Butch/femme scales based on het norms are always bad / Making butch/femme scales which actually USE het people = acceptable

2. Calling feminine het women femme = bad / Calling masculine *portraying* het women butch = acceptable

3. Rating women based on looks = bad UNLESS the women being rated *portray* masculine characters or contain some semblence of what is classically known as masculinity as judged by het standards

4. Rating feminine presenting women based on their cooking/cleaning ability = bad bad bad / Rating masculine presenting/portraying women based on the level of handiness = acceptable

5. Discussing the level of hotness of feminine presenting, het women on this site and comparing them to femmes = bad and disrespectful to femmes / Discussing the level of hotness of masculine *portraying*/presenting het women on this site and comparing them to butches = acceptable and anyone who's bothered is being too sensitive

6. Making butch/femme scales based on het standards and using the excuse, "It's FLUFF, People" = bad / Making butch/femme scales which actually use het people and using the excuse, "It's FLUFF, People...lighten up"=acceptable

7. Referring to AJ as a femme even tho she's queer and makes no bones about it, and she's *portrayed* a queer a number of times = bad (I'm not saying she's a femme) / Referring to het, straight women as butch even though they've never once (and in some cases blatantly denied) any sort of queer behavior = acceptable

I had more questions, but I lost my post, and I can't remember them right now, so I might be back with more questions


I'm Just Trying To Keep On Top Of The Double Standa...Er...Rules, Because It's Hard To Keep Track Sometimes,
Dylan

thesoftertouch
07-17-2007, 04:02 AM
Did they do a good job? Are there characteristics that were not covered by the judges? Were there any on the list that don't do it for you and any that you would have added instead?!

Are we still playing? :|

msmoxie
07-17-2007, 04:56 AM
JJ and I will cast a line for you later, mkay?;) (k)


Definitions
A "Real butch"… ahh I don’t know too many incarnations to craft a working definition.

I think I am a “reel butch!”

Reel Butch:
A butch who plays or dances to a particular type of traditional Irish Music
Also a butch who loves to fish. And in rare cases, a butch who frequently staggers, sways or stumbles.

…. I don’t fish… and I never stagger so … I’ll just play on(8)

S1

PrincessFluff
07-17-2007, 05:09 AM
I'm in agreement here. FLUFF. I wasn't offended by any of it. I did think it was stupid, but I wasn't offended. If a bunch of women want to write a fluffy online article about their favorite butches in tv and movies, I really don't give a crap.



hey hey there.. now watch that FLUFF talk... now I'm offended, darn it... ;) :P ^o)

luluvbelle
07-17-2007, 08:01 AM
If you think you are Butch than you are!
If you align your life with those thoughts swimming around in your head
than you create that reality.
Your perception of yourself is more important than any poll,
or "click" identity label someone on the outside creates for you.
Only you can create your true reality by your actions and thoughts within that reality.
If something feels wrong or "less than" you are not balanced within your own identity or put others opinions about you before your own and that for sure will create a feeling of being "less than" because of something on the outside taking precedent over what you feel your absolute truth really is for you!
Believe the best is true! Believe it for yourself! Believe it for everyone! Believe the best in yourself, regardless of how you identify, regardless of what you want or think you need, even if it is not happening, or you don't have it right now, or you feel a bit ungrounded within what ever it is you are trying to "get, or be" . . . believe it, think of it, and it will be.
Try it and see for a day or two.
Energy begets energy.
Feelings of less than will only bring more of that.
Don't give any extra thoughts to the things you don't want.
If you do, you will just get more of that, and less of what you really want!

Lists are fun to read and are entertainment for the moment. IF something within any of that elitists a negative reaction, look within to see what it is exactly that makes you feel that way, employ your own power for you instead of looking on the outside.

A "Top Hot Butch" to me, is a person that thinks they are already the "best butch" because I know/hope their actions are in alignment with their thoughts and that is HOT! That for sure will draw me to them!

Interesting thread....interesting reactions....
It caused me to pause and write this for what ever reason.

Peace to all who are here,

We are all the TOP,
and Hottness is in each of us,
Believe it,
just let it out,
be true to you today and everyday!
for the good of all concerned.

Namaste!

OutlawDaddy
07-17-2007, 08:36 AM
Lovely. A little Racism to go with my Monday night.

Where, may I ask did you get this definition from?

*note: I have been quite immersed in Italian-American culture for my entire life and I find it incredibly offensive
that anyone (whomever authored the definition) would promote such a definition. Racism is racism.




If you move your cursor over the grey underlined link marked A-Shirt, you'll find the definition came from answers.com.

http://www.answers.com/topic/sleeveless-shirt

The definition is relative to the historical and social implications it discusses, hence my distaste for the term and post to the user and the thread expressing that.

I don't find the definition promoting anything other than an explanation of the etiology of wife beater as an all to common colloquialism.

I need to be better about noting that there is a linky there...we need new icons, like a neon arrow pointing to the link, escpecially because it's so easy to embed them within the post. Sorry for the confusion.

This definition is reflective of my experiences with stereotypes growing up as a first generation American on the east coast.

Sorry for the confusion.

I am interested to hear more on how you view this specifically as racism, if you choose to indulge.

OD

resqx
07-17-2007, 08:47 AM
Ok, I just want to make sure I've got the rules down pat

1. Butch/femme scales based on het norms are always bad / Making butch/femme scales which actually USE het people = acceptable

2. Calling feminine het women femme = bad / Calling masculine *portraying* het women butch = acceptable

3. Rating women based on looks = bad UNLESS the women being rated *portray* masculine characters or contain some semblence of what is classically known as masculinity as judged by het standards

4. Rating feminine presenting women based on their cooking/cleaning ability = bad bad bad / Rating masculine presenting/portraying women based on the level of handiness = acceptable

5. Discussing the level of hotness of feminine presenting, het women on this site and comparing them to femmes = bad and disrespectful to femmes / Discussing the level of hotness of masculine *portraying*/presenting het women on this site and comparing them to butches = acceptable and anyone who's bothered is being too sensitive

6. Making butch/femme scales based on het standards and using the excuse, "It's FLUFF, People" = bad / Making butch/femme scales which actually use het people and using the excuse, "It's FLUFF, People...lighten up"=acceptable

7. Referring to AJ as a femme even tho she's queer and makes no bones about it, and she's *portrayed* a queer a number of times = bad (I'm not saying she's a femme) / Referring to het, straight women as butch even though they've never once (and in some cases blatantly denied) any sort of queer behavior = acceptable

I had more questions, but I lost my post, and I can't remember them right now, so I might be back with more questions


I'm Just Trying To Keep On Top Of The Double Standa...Er...Rules, Because It's Hard To Keep Track Sometimes,
Dylan



now you know <:o)

thanks for the rundown of double standa....oh i mean the rules ;)

nihilisia
07-17-2007, 09:00 AM
I really think rating people is kinda gross.

Concrete_Angel
07-17-2007, 09:00 AM
Ok, I just want to make sure I've got the rules down pat

1. Butch/femme scales based on het norms are always bad / Making butch/femme scales which actually USE het people = acceptable

2. Calling feminine het women femme = bad / Calling masculine *portraying* het women butch = acceptable

3. Rating women based on looks = bad UNLESS the women being rated *portray* masculine characters or contain some semblence of what is classically known as masculinity as judged by het standards

4. Rating feminine presenting women based on their cooking/cleaning ability = bad bad bad / Rating masculine presenting/portraying women based on the level of handiness = acceptable

5. Discussing the level of hotness of feminine presenting, het women on this site and comparing them to femmes = bad and disrespectful to femmes / Discussing the level of hotness of masculine *portraying*/presenting het women on this site and comparing them to butches = acceptable and anyone who's bothered is being too sensitive

6. Making butch/femme scales based on het standards (The women judging and selecting are gay, not het) and using the excuse, "It's FLUFF, People" = bad / Making butch/femme scales which actually use het people and using the excuse, "It's FLUFF, People...lighten up"=acceptable

7. Referring to AJ as a femme even tho she's queer and makes no bones about it, and she's *portrayed* a queer a number of times = bad (I'm not saying she's a femme) / Referring to het, straight women as butch even though they've never once (and in some cases blatantly denied) any sort of queer behavior = acceptable

I had more questions, but I lost my post, and I can't remember them right now, so I might be back with more questions


I'm Just Trying To Keep On Top Of The Double Standa...Er...Rules, Because It's Hard To Keep Track Sometimes,
Dylan

Dylan,

I don't think anyone, and certaintly I wasn't saying, that these things were okay. I was pointing out that THEY HAPPEN everyday, with feminine women, so welcome to our world!

Looking at straight women and fantsizing about their femme-ness= happens everyday.

Portraying a possibly straight woman as butch, and lesbians doing an article, not a scientific project, on the *makes you drool factor* = welcome to the flip side.


CA~

joectigger
07-17-2007, 11:13 AM
Did they do a good job? Are there characteristics that were not covered by the judges? Were there any on the list that don't do it for you and any that you would have added instead?!


Are we still playing? :|

... Yes :) :|

KwanYin
07-17-2007, 11:16 AM
Ok, I just want to make sure I've got the rules down pat

1. Butch/femme scales based on het norms are always bad / Making butch/femme scales which actually USE het people = acceptable

2. Calling feminine het women femme = bad / Calling masculine *portraying* het women butch = acceptable

3. Rating women based on looks = bad UNLESS the women being rated *portray* masculine characters or contain some semblence of what is classically known as masculinity as judged by het standards

4. Rating feminine presenting women based on their cooking/cleaning ability = bad bad bad / Rating masculine presenting/portraying women based on the level of handiness = acceptable

5. Discussing the level of hotness of feminine presenting, het women on this site and comparing them to femmes = bad and disrespectful to femmes / Discussing the level of hotness of masculine *portraying*/presenting het women on this site and comparing them to butches = acceptable and anyone who's bothered is being too sensitive

6. Making butch/femme scales based on het standards and using the excuse, "It's FLUFF, People" = bad / Making butch/femme scales which actually use het people and using the excuse, "It's FLUFF, People...lighten up"=acceptable

7. Referring to AJ as a femme even tho she's queer and makes no bones about it, and she's *portrayed* a queer a number of times = bad (I'm not saying she's a femme) / Referring to het, straight women as butch even though they've never once (and in some cases blatantly denied) any sort of queer behavior = acceptable

I had more questions, but I lost my post, and I can't remember them right now, so I might be back with more questions


I'm Just Trying To Keep On Top Of The Double Standa...Er...Rules, Because It's Hard To Keep Track Sometimes,
Dylan

I guess I read a lot of folks here objecting to all this stuff. *shrug*
Am I selective reading again?

joectigger
07-17-2007, 11:19 AM
Dylan, I don't think anyone has said there were rules involved nor that the view of this particular article was accurate to make sweeping generalizations with.

The four people polled to write the article gave their preferences. It's a way for an online site or magazine to get lots of hits to talk about eye candy. If you're going to run your life around those four people's (or anyone else for that matter) opinions of what a Butch is and what makes someone a hot Butch, I think that presents a problem and a hell of a lot of hoops to continuously jump through to apease the masses.

I'd rather not do all that jumping and just be me.

nihilisia
07-17-2007, 01:12 PM
Okay, I joined the forums over on the site where this article was published. I asked if it was a butch-friendly place. Two femmes replied, two butches, one masculine-seeming individual requested not to be labeled, and a mod said butches were not discriminated against just like bi people aren`t. Then the mod came back and asked why - if a woman is attracted to a woman, she wouldn`t be attracted to a woman who looks like a woman. So, I`m guessing the culture over there is not exactly butch-femme knowledgeable or friendly, though some butches and femmes do exist over there.

TheFrozenNorth
07-17-2007, 01:17 PM
If you think you are Butch than you are!
If you align your life with those thoughts swimming around in your head
than you create that reality.
Your perception of yourself is more important than any poll,
or "click" identity label someone on the outside creates for you.
Only you can create your true reality by your actions and thoughts within that reality.
If something feels wrong or "less than" you are not balanced within your own identity or put others opinions about you before your own and that for sure will create a feeling of being "less than" because of something on the outside taking precedent over what you feel your absolute truth really is for you!
Believe the best is true! Believe it for yourself! Believe it for everyone! Believe the best in yourself, regardless of how you identify, regardless of what you want or think you need, even if it is not happening, or you don't have it right now, or you feel a bit ungrounded within what ever it is you are trying to "get, or be" . . . believe it, think of it, and it will be.
Try it and see for a day or two.
Energy begets energy.
Feelings of less than will only bring more of that.
Don't give any extra thoughts to the things you don't want.
If you do, you will just get more of that, and less of what you really want!

Lists are fun to read and are entertainment for the moment. IF something within any of that elitists a negative reaction, look within to see what it is exactly that makes you feel that way, employ your own power for you instead of looking on the outside.

A "Top Hot Butch" to me, is a person that thinks they are already the "best butch" because I know/hope their actions are in alignment with their thoughts and that is HOT! That for sure will draw me to them!

Interesting thread....interesting reactions....
It caused me to pause and write this for what ever reason.

Peace to all who are here,

We are all the TOP,
and Hottness is in each of us,
Believe it,
just let it out,
be true to you today and everyday!
for the good of all concerned.

Namaste!


Lu, this is why I love ya hun....and you are a dear friend to me...you always put it in perspective, and often show me how even my own thinking has gone awry. This was by far one of the most eloquent posts I have seen in a long time. Thanks (k) *gonna try to kick some rep your way*

hollylewya
07-17-2007, 01:21 PM
1. I was pointing out that THEY HAPPEN everyday, with feminine women, so welcome to our world!

2. Looking at straight women and fantsizing about their femme-ness= happens everyday.

3. Portraying a possibly straight woman as butch, and lesbians doing an article, not a scientific project, on the *makes you drool factor* = welcome to the flip side.


CA~

1. Ummmm, it's my world too, CA. I gotta nice rack remember? I get judged on it everyday, every minute. I'm not feminine enough to be female, and I'm not masculine enough to be male. So, since I got the twins, I'm judged too based on this bullshit. Yeah, I live there too. Are you saying "Sexism happens, deal with it"?

2. I don't equate straight women and femmeness. I really don't. I don't look at straight women and think of them as femme. If others do, that's their issue. I find some straight women attractive. I find some queer women attractive. Sometimes, I don't know what they're preference is, and they're still attractive. I find het and queer guys attractive too. But I don't equate straight women with femme women. There's a huge difference (to me)...there's an umph there that het women don't have. I can't explain it to others, but... If others are doing this, again, that's on them, and (in my opinion) should be dealt with. I hope you're not excusing it

3. Welcome to what flip side? Sexism is sexism, and here it is exemplified, and here are the excuses for it that it's just in good fun, 'sexism happens', and 'get used to it, we go through this everyday'. Sexism's still bad, right? Because we're all still paying for it.

My comments weren't directed at your posts. They were directed at the 'Get over it, it's all in good fun, just fluff" comments from those who would be bitching up a storm at any other sort of sexism or any other butch scale posted on this site.

Do we see it as less offensive if it's directed at masculine women? And if I waltzed in here with an article in which butches sat around rating het women as femme (and discussing their *assumed* cooking/cleaning abilities), there would be Hell. To. Pay. Hell. To. Pay. Flames everywhere. Fire and brimstone. The whole nine yards. All of it. All the Dante levels! People's heads would be exploding all over the place. There would be talk of a cool kid gang and everything. The whole shibang.

I don't see the difference between that sexism and this sexism. I don't see the difference between the insulting-ness of rating het women as femme and rating het women as butch. It's offensive to women, and it's offensive to queers. It reiterates the het normative bullshit we ALL bitch about around here. And what happened to the rule about naming others? It reinforces the bullshit that hets can *play* queers better than queers. It reinforces the bullshit that we don't even have to look to our own fucking community and SUPPORT our own fucking community by doing a simple search for 15 (FIFTEEN, we're not talking a 100 or 500...we're talking FIFTEEN) fucking butches in the entertainment industry. Just based on the suggestions people have offered in this thread in what? four/five pages, we've got 15 self ID'd butches in the industry!


So, That's My Issue,
Dylan

speaksofthesky
07-17-2007, 01:28 PM
Okay, I joined the forums over on the site where this article was published. I asked if it was a butch-friendly place. Two femmes replied, two butches, one masculine-seeming individual requested not to be labeled, and a mod said butches were not discriminated against just like bi people aren`t. Then the mod came back and asked why - if a woman is attracted to a woman, she wouldn`t be attracted to a woman who looks like a woman. So, I`m guessing the culture over there is not exactly butch-femme knowledgeable or friendly, though some butches and femmes do exist over there.

They don't seem to be too terribly butch-femme knowledgeable or friendly from my reading or watching of the website. I'm not terribly surprised that that was your reaction to the site.

Someone earlier asked why the panelists didn't mention other butches, maybe they did, but the author picked out butches for them to rank.

I wonder why they didn't have Skyler Cooper (http://www.afterellen.com/people/2007/5/skylercooper) represented. I'd give her points on handiness and I don't mean her wrench skills.

TheFrozenNorth
07-17-2007, 01:48 PM
1. Ummmm, it's my world too, CA. I gotta nice rack remember? I get judged on it everyday, every minute. I'm not feminine enough to be female, and I'm not masculine enough to be male. So, since I got the twins, I'm judged too based on this bullshit. Yeah, I live there too. Are you saying "Sexism happens, deal with it"?

2. I don't equate straight women and femmeness. I really don't. I don't look at straight women and think of them as femme. If others do, that's their issue. I find some straight women attractive. I find some queer women attractive. Sometimes, I don't know what they're preference is, and they're still attractive. I find het and queer guys attractive too. But I don't equate straight women with femme women. There's a huge difference (to me)...there's an umph there that het women don't have. I can't explain it to others, but... If others are doing this, again, that's on them, and (in my opinion) should be dealt with. I hope you're not excusing it

3. Welcome to what flip side? Sexism is sexism, and here it is exemplified, and here are the excuses for it that it's just in good fun, 'sexism happens', and 'get used to it, we go through this everyday'. Sexism's still bad, right? Because we're all still paying for it.

My comments weren't directed at your posts. They were directed at the 'Get over it, it's all in good fun, just fluff" comments from those who would be bitching up a storm at any other sort of sexism or any other butch scale posted on this site.

Do we see it as less offensive if it's directed at masculine women? And if I waltzed in here with an article in which butches sat around rating het women as femme (and discussing their *assumed* cooking/cleaning abilities), there would be Hell. To. Pay. Hell. To. Pay. Flames everywhere. Fire and brimstone. The whole nine yards. All of it. All the Dante levels! People's heads would be exploding all over the place. There would be talk of a cool kid gang and everything. The whole shibang.

I don't see the difference between that sexism and this sexism. I don't see the difference between the insulting-ness of rating het women as femme and rating het women as butch. It's offensive to women, and it's offensive to queers. It reiterates the het normative bullshit we ALL bitch about around here. And what happened to the rule about naming others? It reinforces the bullshit that hets can *play* queers better than queers. It reinforces the bullshit that we don't even have to look to our own fucking community and SUPPORT our own fucking community by doing a simple search for 15 (FIFTEEN, we're not talking a 100 or 500...we're talking FIFTEEN) fucking butches in the entertainment industry. Just based on the suggestions people have offered in this thread in what? four/five pages, we've got 15 self ID'd butches in the industry!


So, That's My Issue,
Dylan


I couldn't rep ya again...so here's the next best thing (y)(y)(y)

BlistexLez
07-17-2007, 02:51 PM
OK...I will admit that when I looked at the list, my first instinct was to compare myself to the people on the list. I tried to do a "I'm more butch than..." or "I'm not as butch as.." thingy. Then I thought about it and stopped trying to compare.

Being a lesbian was taboo in my family, being a butch was even worse. I never considered myself butch and made sure to point out that my interests were just how I was...not related to my sexuality or ID. I staunchly defended myself for wearing mens shoes, cuz my feet were too big. Then I defended myself for wearing mens clothing cuz I liked the material better and could find my size in any store, not just the plus size shops. When I got my hair cut short, my mom didn't talk to me, but I explained to her (and co-workers) that I wasn't trying to be a male, I just like having short hair.

When I joined this site last year, I tried to figure out if I was "butch enough." There were so many labels to deal with and they all seem to have people saying "you are 'this' if..." or you can't be 'that' if..." All I wanted was to figure out how I could fit in. Turns out, I don't need to. What I do need is to be a person who is comfortable with who I am regardless of how other people see me. Labels are convenient for quickly sorting things that are alike, but what seems similar on the surface may not be similar at all. I will try to find hose similarities that aren't as obvious.

Bottom line is, I don't really care what people consider butch or femme. I'm glad people are talking about it, especially if it is in a positive light. I think some of the people on the list are hot...that doesn't mean I want a relationship with them. Hot is hot...male, female, trans, etc. Here's to hot people (b)

Sun
07-17-2007, 03:17 PM
I have had the misfortune of hearing those expressions (among others) in my travels. It wasn’t being promoted as a definition when I heard it, it was just being thoughtlessly and ignorantly tossed about in much the same manner that “wife beater” is.

I agree, they are all offensive. As I read the other post, I think OD finds them equally offensive.

S1

I am sure. Just wondering where the posted definition originated.

Sun
07-17-2007, 03:27 PM
LOL!!! <And Sun you know it's not meant as a sarcastic laugh>
A little racism is easier to swallow with some Ben and Jerrys Coffee health bar crunch ice cream. I even drove out and went in the store in Betty Boop PJs to buy it.
ATTENTION: This thread may become hazardous to your diet!
Just trying to lighten things up(a)

LOL...Excellent.

You know I really do get that the media is not seeing enough "Butch who ID as Butch, not just play one on TV" so I have a question for all of the Butch's who are reading this...

How visible are you willing to be?

I am curious as to how a list of "Visible Butch's" in the media can occur if more of us are not visible and doing work that brings us into the public eye. That is not the kind of work that everyone does so yes those in the entertainment industry are going to be front and center in the media or at the very least..the media will call the question; who if anyone IS visible?

In my experience, "Hot" means something different to everyone so even a Top 15 Most Visible Butch list would interest me.

HarryLoneWolf
07-17-2007, 03:41 PM
Hmmmm. Sometimes I think 'butch' is the 3,000 lb word. It's sooooo HEAVY. Sometimes it just weighs me down, like it's gonna crush me right into the ground. What is butch? How many ways have we all asked this question? How many times? Butch schmutch. We are who we BELIEVE we are. An anorexic person BELIEVES they are fat. So they are. My great aunt Carrie had an orphaned calf she bottle raised in the yard with all her hound dogs. That calf grew up acting like a dog. Would freak the crap outta people who would come up in the yard and have this 800 lb COW running up to them ready to play 'fetch'. A cow that moved 'funny', like dropping her head and shoulders down the way dogs do when they wanna play tug or something. Ate out of the dog bowls with the rest of the pack. That cow was a dog in it's heart and soul. If somebody says they're butch, then they're butch goddammit.

Harriot the Wonder Stud<:o)

joectigger
07-17-2007, 04:08 PM
LOL...Excellent.

You know I really do get that the media is not seeing enough "Butch who ID as Butch, not just play one on TV" so I have a question for all of the Butch's who are reading this...

How visible are you willing to be?

I am curious as to how a list of "Visible Butch's" in the media can occur if more of us are not visible and doing work that brings us into the public eye. That is not the kind of work that everyone does so yes those in the entertainment industry are going to be front and center in the media or at the very least..the media will call the question; who if anyone IS visible?

In my experience, "Hot" means something different to everyone so even a Top 15 Most Visible Butch list would interest me.


Hot is definitely a matter of preference.


Visibility is a tricky thing to talk about in relation to being Butch. For many it maybe written all over them from just how they appear, or not at all. So visibility of a gender can difficult at least. As the poll list shows, many women present as Butch, but are not Butch identified at all.

So even the term visible can be relative. Visible to whom? John Q Public that wouldn't know Butch from lesbian or that the two terms can be inclusive and exclusive? That kind of visibility is not there. And neither is the type of visibility you are talking about in the media.

Yet being visibily queer and visibily Butch, can be just that SUPER visible. To each person viewing me as the visibly queer Butch that I am and that I present, they take away something completely different, depending on their experiences with gays, lesbians, women, men, transpeople, language, you name it.

I may look like a genderqueer or a Butch to someone who is familiar with the terms, and I may look like a poster child for the lesbian movement to another. No matter how I actually identify, which is just what happened to the Top 15 people in the poll. I sure as hell wouldn't want to be on some Top whatever number list of a group that I know I didn't belong to nor identify with. But then again I'm not a celebrity looking for dollars towards my next project. Most of them can possibly take whatever attention they may have gained from being on the list, even if they had no clue what it stood for to others. That's the entertainment biz.

Sun
07-17-2007, 04:32 PM
Hot is definitely a matter of preference.


Visibility is a tricky thing to talk about in relation to being Butch. For many it maybe written all over them from just how they appear, or not at all. So visibility of a gender can difficult at least. As the poll list shows, many women present as Butch, but are not Butch identified at all.

So even the term visible can be relative. Visible to whom? John Q Public that wouldn't know Butch from lesbian or that the two terms can be inclusive and exclusive? That kind of visibility is not there. And neither is the type of visibility you are talking about in the media.

Yet being visibily queer and visibily Butch, can be just that SUPER visible. To each person viewing me as the visibly queer Butch that I am and that I present, they take away something completely different, depending on their experiences with gays, lesbians, women, men, transpeople, language, you name it.

I may look like a genderqueer or a Butch to someone who is familiar with the terms, and I may look like a poster child for the lesbian movement to another. No matter how I actually identify, which is just what happened to the Top 15 people in the poll. I sure as hell wouldn't want to be on some Top whatever number list of a group that I know I didn't belong to nor identify with. But then again I'm not a celebrity looking for dollars towards my next project. Most of them can possibly take whatever attention they may have gained from being on the list, even if they had no clue what it stood for to others. That's the entertainment biz.

Good points as always Joe.

One question that I would put out to the community is what definitions have we all come up with for what is being called "LA Butch".

I am in LA quite regularly and I see a wide variety of "Butch" identified people and yet a "not too masculine for the mainstream type of Butch" continues to show up in the media. Some are cast as charachters and others are playing themselves and softening the edges for whom?

For whom is an excellent question.

I want to see the down and dirty cowboi/y's, greying Butch, Butch's of
ALL colors, Leather Butch's, Geek Butch's...not just this generic "Hollywood...prepped for TV Butch".

Every Butch is important to me. Any visibility is better than no visibility. What do I mean by visible?

Being seen as whomever you are.

No alterations.

No assimilation.

Whatever it is that you as a Butch ID'd Butch want to portray to the entire world, not just the media.

Kyssme
07-17-2007, 04:40 PM
I wonder why they didn't have Skyler Cooper (http://www.afterellen.com/people/2007/5/skylercooper) represented. I'd give her points on handiness and I don't mean her wrench skills.

omg!! yummy!!! :P

she will make one HAWT Othello!!!

Shyfemmekat
07-17-2007, 04:40 PM
Good points as always Joe.

One question that I would put out to the community is what definitions have we all come up with for what is being called "LA Butch".

I am in LA quite regularly and I see a wide variety of "Butch" identified people and yet a "not too masculine for the mainstream type of Butch" continues to show up in the media. Some are cast as charachters and others are playing themselves and softening the edges for whom?

For whom is an excellent question.

I want to see the down and dirty cowboi/y's, greying Butch, Butch's of
ALL colors, Leather Butch's, Geek Butch's...not just this generic "Hollywood...prepped for TV Butch".

Every Butch is important to me. Any visibility is better than no visibility. What do I mean by visible?

Being seen as whomever you are.

No alterations.

No assimilation.

Whatever it is that you as a Butch ID'd Butch want to portray to the entire world, not just the media.

*Clapping little hands and smiling at Sun*

SFK

joectigger
07-17-2007, 04:44 PM
Good points as always Joe.

One question that I would put out to the community is what definitions have we all come up with for what is being called "LA Butch".

I am in LA quite regularly and I see a wide variety of "Butch" identified people and yet a "not too masculine for the mainstream type of Butch" continues to show up in the media. Some are cast as charachters and others are playing themselves and softening the edges for whom?

For whom is an excellent question.

I want to see the down and dirty cowboi/y's, greying Butch, Butch's of
ALL colors, Leather Butch's, Geek Butch's...not just this generic "Hollywood...prepped for TV Butch".

Every Butch is important to me. Any visibility is better than no visibility. What do I mean by visible?

Being seen as whomever you are.

No alterations.

No assimilation.

Whatever it is that you as a Butch ID'd Butch want to portray to the entire world, not just the media.

I really don't have a specific image in mind for an LA Butch offhand. I would probably equate this person with what stereotypes I have with people of LA and California in general, which would probably mean more superficial. Of course it's a sweeping generalization, but that's what the media has placed before us time and time again. The people that I've met from California are not that way. see what generalizations do. lol

If my only view of LA GLBT is the L word, and Shane is the more masculine of them, I understand how that can be someone's image of an LA Butch. I have never been to LA, so I really have no basis to say what an LA Butch looks like.

I think the visibility that you are speaking of is too difficult to expect, because no one will ever see me as the person that I am. No matter the multiple conversations and complete descriptions that I could possibly give to lead you closer to the person that I am. No matter how much I tell you that the real honest to goodness Joe is on display before you.

I would hope that most people put more of their genuine self on display, but that is way too pollyanna of a belief. Posturing and defensive stances are a part of life, which breed assimilations and alterations. It's a neverending circle, and doesn't yield anyone closer to seeing me beyond what your eyes see and what assumptions are based on that view, based on your experiences and beliefs.

Concrete_Angel
07-17-2007, 05:03 PM
1. Ummmm, it's my world too, CA. I gotta nice rack remember? I get judged on it everyday, every minute. I'm not feminine enough to be female, and I'm not masculine enough to be male. So, since I got the twins, I'm judged too based on this bullshit. Yeah, I live there too. Are you saying "Sexism happens, deal with it"?

Dylan, I didn't see the article as sexist at all. If there were a plethora of butches in the actual media, and they were over-looked in lieu of actresses portraying butches, that would have been upsetting, but really, these were lesbians just picking out some roles they thought were butch. The criteria was silly, but it was an article, not some measuring tool.



2. I don't equate straight women and femmeness. I really don't. I don't look at straight women and think of them as femme. If others do, that's their issue. I find some straight women attractive. I find some queer women attractive. Sometimes, I don't know what they're preference is, and they're still attractive. I find het and queer guys attractive too. But I don't equate straight women with femme women. There's a huge difference (to me)...there's an umph there that het women don't have. I can't explain it to others, but... If others are doing this, again, that's on them, and (in my opinion) should be dealt with. I hope you're not excusing it

Of course I am not excusing it. It angers me foremost! It is commendable if you don't do this, and I agree, a femme has an energy over a straight feminine woman, in that she APPRECIATES and *gets* the butch energy, and can offer up that appreciation. :)


3. Welcome to what flip side? Sexism is sexism, and here it is exemplified, and here are the excuses for it that it's just in good fun, 'sexism happens', and 'get used to it, we go through this everyday'. Sexism's still bad, right? Because we're all still paying for it.

Again, I did not see this as sexism. It was some minor objectification of some *stars*. Got Playboy? Got Hustler? Got the myriad of magazines like Maxim and even Rolling Stone that does display sexism because a naked woman sells?


Do we see it as less offensive if it's directed at masculine women? And if I waltzed in here with an article in which butches sat around rating het women as femme (and discussing their *assumed* cooking/cleaning abilities), there would be Hell. To. Pay. Hell. To. Pay. Flames everywhere. Fire and brimstone. The whole nine yards. All of it. All the Dante levels! People's heads would be exploding all over the place. There would be talk of a cool kid gang and everything. The whole shibang.

I read this daily in the forums.. straight feminine women rated on a hotness scale, so this had no OOMPH, with me at all. There are entire threads about who we find hot, have crushes on both in and out of BF.com and such. Most all the butch crushes are on straight female actresses.


It reinforces the bullshit that hets can *play* queers better than queers.

How does it do that? Who said they were better than any actual IDed butch?


It reinforces the bullshit that we don't even have to look to our own fucking community and SUPPORT our own fucking community by doing a simple search for 15 (FIFTEEN, we're not talking a 100 or 500...we're talking FIFTEEN) fucking butches in the entertainment industry. Just based on the suggestions people have offered in this thread in what? four/five pages, we've got 15 self ID'd butches in the industry!


So, That's My Issue,
Dylan

We just saw this article VERY differently. Period. I'm not wrong or right, just different.

CA~

crack11974
07-17-2007, 06:00 PM
The objective is to make money through advertising. The more viewers, the more money they can get out of advertisers. To get more viewers and a broad selection of the population, things are watered down and prettied up in a generic way for mass appeal. Rarely is ANYONE real truly depicted on television. It's why shows like Roseanne were so groundbreaking and special (at least to me).

Movies are a business as well. And in the same way, they want to appeal to the biggest broadest audience. Same watering down and gussying up happens. It happens to EVERYONE depicted in the films.

You only get edgier and more real with independent films and even then, their true goal is to make some cash. If they don't make some cash and appeal to SOMEONE, we won't ever see them anyways unless we live in a major metropolitan, artsy area that actually is interested in promoting the arts and diversity you know?

And again, I can't be angry b/c some online lesbian website picked out their favorite lesbian singers, personalities and characters and rated their hotness. I don't care. I don't think afterellen.com holds the key to my acceptance and the world's understanding of who I am. I don't need the world to really understand honestly. There are misunderstanding and injustices all over. There are assumptions and isms running rampant. I will save my fire and brimstone for something a little more significant than a lesbian article on the internet.....it doesn't feel like a big fish to fry IMO. To me, it was just stupid.

Because some people just really didn't care about an article on afterellen.com is hardly a reason to make some big statement about a double standard. I don't care about a lot of shit and the only thing that indicates is that *I* *don't* *give* *a* *shit* *about* *a* *lot* *of* *stuff*, including this and I voiced my opinion that this article falls into the category of "a lot of stuff" I don't give a shit about. Many people here did give a shit. Really, Dylan, making radical statements about allllllllllllll of us b/c some people really just didn't care is giving a few opinions a lot of power and a dumb article on a tiny lesbian site a lot of pull. It upset you, well fine. I guess let them know that? If you think others should be upset and yer trying to rally support for that and get people to join you, the best way probably isn't by being sarcastic and accusatory.

We all have different lives, barometers, triggers, responsibilites, priorities. If this is one of yours, well that's great. But just because it's not someone else's please don't judge and make blanket statements about all of us and a "double standard".

OutlawDaddy
07-17-2007, 08:20 PM
I am sure. Just wondering where the posted definition originated.


Clicky here:

http://www.butch-femme.com/portal/forums/showpost.php?p=2484870&postcount=158

or see post 158

pisceanstar
07-18-2007, 06:54 AM
I read this article and thought..."yea...it's fluff...but wait a minute, it's publicity!"
While I know that there has been a lot of mention as to whether or not these actors/musicians identify as butch in real life, to me, that's irrelevant, this is not about real life, it's about persona and characters created for the masses to see. And while, many of these people on this Hot List do not necessarily present the ultimate in butchdom for you, me, and many others, it does offer something to the masses...exposure of the not-so-typical or expected-to-be feminine woman and are seen as attractive. The reality is that we live in a world of adjectives, descriptors of our presence. I know that when I walk down the street, people aren't viewing me with a wonder of how I identify.This isn't really any different than how we look at celebrities with preconceived ideas that has been reinforced by the media through...you guessed it, persona and characterizations. Rome wasn't built in a day, folks. Look at this as a door opening, the world being exposed to the initial facets of us as a community. If Ellen or Shane allow the world to see another side of the queer community in a positive light I raise a glass in celebration because it means one more step to what really counts...Civil Rights, baby!

The world may see me as butch, the adjective, and that's just fine, because it is my lover who gets sees the noun;)

DaddyMelvin
07-18-2007, 07:34 AM
(y) (y) (y) (y)
Great Story....Good Point.



Hmmmm. Sometimes I think 'butch' is the 3,000 lb word. It's sooooo HEAVY. Sometimes it just weighs me down, like it's gonna crush me right into the ground. What is butch? How many ways have we all asked this question? How many times? Butch schmutch. We are who we BELIEVE we are. An anorexic person BELIEVES they are fat. So they are. My great aunt Carrie had an orphaned calf she bottle raised in the yard with all her hound dogs. That calf grew up acting like a dog. Would freak the crap outta people who would come up in the yard and have this 800 lb COW running up to them ready to play 'fetch'. A cow that moved 'funny', like dropping her head and shoulders down the way dogs do when they wanna play tug or something. Ate out of the dog bowls with the rest of the pack. That cow was a dog in it's heart and soul. If somebody says they're butch, then they're butch goddammit.

Harriot the Wonder Stud<:o)

DaddyMelvin
07-18-2007, 07:38 AM
(y) (y) (y) (y)
This is very true. Right On.


I read this article and thought..."yea...it's fluff...but wait a minute, it's publicity!"
While I know that there has been a lot of mention as to whether or not these actors/musicians identify as butch in real life, to me, that's irrelevant, this is not about real life, it's about persona and characters created for the masses to see. And while, many of these people on this Hot List do not necessarily present the ultimate in butchdom for you, me, and many others, it does offer something to the masses...exposure of the not-so-typical or expected-to-be feminine woman and are seen as attractive. The reality is that we live in a world of adjectives, descriptors of our presence. I know that when I walk down the street, people aren't viewing me with a wonder of how I identify.This isn't really any different than how we look at celebrities with preconceived ideas that has been reinforced by the media through...you guessed it, persona and characterizations. Rome wasn't built in a day, folks. Look at this as a door opening, the world being exposed to the initial facets of us as a community. If Ellen or Shane allow the world to see another side of the queer community in a positive light I raise a glass in celebration because it means one more step to what really counts...Civil Rights, baby!

The world may see me as butch, the adjective, and that's just fine, because it is my lover who gets sees the noun;)

BardicSong
07-18-2007, 09:23 AM
This was an excellent way to spend my lunch while eating the lunch my honey packed me. Hmmmm...

Definitely not a whole lot of butch material in those pics but I love that Melissa and KD Lang were kept in the counting. Butch doesn't always mean the same thing to each and every one of us, though. :) Take my honey for example, who was sadly lacking from the list of contestants but who is extraordinarily handsome, suave, gentlemenly, honourable, bold and...I could go on and southwestern....purrr....but I digress.

Corky has always been a solid butch in my eyes. *waves a fan thinking about the memory of the love scenes with Meg Tilly!*

How about Martina Navritilova? Now, there's a butch that didn't make the list and sure as hell should have, IMWO.

B.

RopeBurner
07-18-2007, 10:09 AM
Apparently butch is relative and regional, 90% of the butches on this list 'play one on TV or movies' and would never consider themselves 'that kind of butch' never of course quite clarifying what objection they have but we can guess. Most of the 15 butches listed here are what we in northern California call L.A. butch somewhere near soft butch and somewhere near andro but I am sure there are plenty of L.A. femmes that are into them. (Yeah, few femmes in this town date butches that wear eyeliner except when they do).

There are all kinds of butch if you look at the butch o meter--so I would never say to my butch brothers (or sisters, I know everyone's got an objection these days <g>), you have to wear, swagger, not wear, x, y or z to be considered butch. Butch is what makes you feel butch and the women you are trying to attract go 'wow', and that's the truth.

So it is my personal opinion that the butches listed on this list play one very well on TV or in the movies but can't pull off the hard work of butch on an everyday basis, which means:

handle male taunts as you walk down the street with a femme, 'Which one of you is the man?' 'Why do you want to look like a man, you know you're not', etc.

feel unsafe walking down the street when any group of men approaches or drives by

handle being called 'Sir' with grace and aplomb

manuever family gatherings with or without putting on the obligatory skirt/dress

ETC.

Sophisticated1
07-18-2007, 10:16 AM
Hmmmm. Sometimes I think 'butch' is the 3,000 lb word. It's sooooo HEAVY. Sometimes it just weighs me down, like it's gonna crush me right into the ground. What is butch? How many ways have we all asked this question? How many times? Butch schmutch. We are who we BELIEVE we are. An anorexic person BELIEVES they are fat. So they are. My great aunt Carrie had an orphaned calf she bottle raised in the yard with all her hound dogs. That calf grew up acting like a dog. Would freak the crap outta people who would come up in the yard and have this 800 lb COW running up to them ready to play 'fetch'. A cow that moved 'funny', like dropping her head and shoulders down the way dogs do when they wanna play tug or something. Ate out of the dog bowls with the rest of the pack. That cow was a dog in it's heart and soul. If somebody says they're butch, then they're butch goddammit.

Harriot the Wonder Stud<:o)




Ok, so a wee bit off topic for a moment, but I will tie it in

About this ID stuff
People can “say” whatever they like about themselves. The simple fact that a human can voice an opinion or feeling about themselves just means… that is how THEY perceive themselves. That is all well and good and fabulous. Others can choose to leave it at that, or they can question, challenge or disagree with them. The outright demand that others must see them in the same way is ridiculous.

Just because one individual says they are and or feel like an X, does not mean that everyone else is going to read them as such or respond to them as such. Nor, as in the case of an anorexic person feeling fat does it make it so. Sometimes the way in which we see ourselves is colored or tainted by other factors that can lead to unsafe and unhealthy and yes I must add incorrect perceptions. To simply say ‘la la la to each their own whatever you say you are and that is just fine’, is dangerous when applied to situations like anorexia.

The idea that personal ID and perception is sacrosanct and untouchable can become dangerous when applied so liberally and, in my opinion, recklessly. This notion of personal ID being absolutely unimpeachable and sacred, is I think, beginning to discredit and degrade the concept of self identification and the desire for others to recognize a variety of alternatives to the “status quo.”

Self identification AND the ability of others to decipher, understand, relate to or respond to a persons ID, are both important and are both up to each individual. Personally, I do not want to be able to call myself 6 feet tall when I am 5’2 and not be questioned. On the flip side if I have a friend who is 6 feet tall and 90 pounds and they think they are fat, I refuse to say “ok, well then go on with your fat self.”

Perception
You cow was behaving as a cow, for it was in fact a cow. It was a cow whose behavior had been affected by its association with and habituation to dogs. If it was not in the realm of cow behavior, then said cow would not be able to do it at all. It was out of the ordinary for sure, and certainly not stereotypical cow behavior, but I think the cow was a cow and it was not vexed, perplexed or perceiving itself to be anything. Humans were perceiving it as such, humans were labeling the cow a dog. The cow was simply living its life. ^o) Could be a good lesson in there somewhere.

Getting back to the 15 butches thing
Everyone has their own idea of what butch and femme and all of their incarnations, mean look like, act and behave like. Not everyone is on the same page within the BF community never mind the greater queer community. I don’t think it is reasonable to expect that we all share the same “definitions” nor that we become shocked and appalled when others outside the BF community use the terminology in ways that do not resonate with us.

We are a sub culture within a sub culture. This necessarily means that fewer people are going to relate to, understand or be familiar with the terminology. It just doesn’t shock me that “butch” and “femme” or the difference between being “butch” or being “a butch” or “femme” or being “a femme” are misunderstood, confused, ignored or what have you.

Taking such great offense and umbrage at the supposed misuse of any of the terminology seems to me to be a waste of energy. Sure if I disagree with the way in which something is defined or used I will offer an opinion (ya, I know, :| really S1?), but this 15 hottest butches (or as has been suggested a hypothetical 15 hottest femmes etc.) just doesn’t rate on my scale of something to take great offense to.

There are too many other things that I am offended by in the world to get that upset about the predictable and understandable differences in perception of Butch and Femme from within the queer community.

S1

FeminineAllure
07-18-2007, 11:12 AM
Taking such great offense and umbrage at the supposed misuse of any of the terminology seems to me to be a waste of energy. Sure if I disagree with the way in which something is defined or used I will offer an opinion (ya, I know, :| really S1?), but this 15 hottest butches (or as has been suggested a hypothetical 15 hottest femmes etc.) just doesn’t rate on my scale of something to take great offense to.

There are too many other things that I am offended by in the world to get that upset about the predictable and understandable differences in perception of Butch and Femme from within the queer community.

S1

(y) (y) (y) (y) (y)

OBB Orginal BadBoi
07-18-2007, 03:03 PM
and this was geared for the lesbian majority the panel repressented best they could.

It's not like there are 15 real true blue self proclaimed butches on TV or in Movies soo they did what they could with the butch Characters that are mainstream.


Anyhow in my book Pink is probably the closest thing to a butch celeb out there, but I think they as far as characters created holliwood butch they did a good job in thier ratings.

I want to know why any1 would read Corky as a femme BTW I don't get. Corky teh character not Gina G was written and protrayed as a butch but i guess if the actress is 2 attractive as a woman then it doesn't matter what role tha character plays in teh story or anything like that around here.

Reading things like this I often wonder 1) when a butch entertainer will ever be fully embraced as very few are I think KD Lang doesn't claim butch and Jenny S gets hard time in the modeling industry so what example do we have of a butch who is embraced as such other then characters like Corky which are roles that are few and far between and ussually given to a showgirl type as almost to cancel out the point.

2cd as butch who is a dancer I wonder if under the feminine look I market on (which now has me looking alot more like Barie then Corky nowadays) would any1 see the butch in me or any1 else that is in the field where advertisng your butch card is the difference between making ends meat not working or making the money. I personally have made choice that might discard my butch card according to what I have read in response to these holliwood butch types, but I'm still the same boi I have always been underneth it all even if I have made choices that I can't undo and go against the rules that say a true butch wouldn't god forbid wear a dress or they would simply die kill themselves over it. But I would like to agrue for enough money like more people then you think would do all kinds of things they normally wouldn't. Not to mention how many butches I know I've seen porm picturs of or other photos where they didn't exzactly reflect the image of super uber masculinity most like to front like .


I for 1 truely believe there have been butches on TV and in Movies that unfornately we didn't see becuz we are all soo obvioused with the rules and looks that becuz s/he wore the dress & makeup which is TV standard then she went under the radar.

Now I think it will be awesome when the world gets to the point where butches are accepted among celebs or when I'ld make just as much dancing for women as a butch lesbian dancer--but let's get real 2day is not the day

msmoxie
07-18-2007, 05:03 PM
I am impressed this discussion is still continuing so fiercely.
Who knew?
Too bad the folks that made the show/list can't get any royalties offa all of us!
Someone could have had a villa by now.
Maybe it's not too late. Quick, someone send them a link!

Ok, ok--dialing down the snark-o-meter--
I think that first and foremost, this is fluff, and there are far more important things on which to spend our collective attention and energies.
HOWEVER--this is not to say that our queer representation in mass media is something to be shrugged off or taken lightly, nor is it to say that the ideas and ideals that comprise Butch and Femme are insignificant...

it's just that...like pisceanstar mentioned--i rather think that some (notice i said *some* rather than *any*) representation is better than no representation at all.
there is something to be said for baby steps.

good enough? maybe not. but i don't expect the media to do my job for me--and by that i mean that my job is representing first myself, and then my community, in a way that honestly reflects my own and our collective integrity, strengths, and goodness, as well as my own and our collective weaknesses and foibles.

if i were in media--i would have done this differently.
as an intelligent and opinionated consumer, i am entertained by it, and i can recognize it's shortcomings.

so i guess sometimes a tanktop is not a tanktop, and a cow not a cow...a femme not a femme and a butch not a butch.....and....?????

Sophisticated1
07-20-2007, 06:28 AM
:| Does that make us not all that? ..... AND a bag of chips??

;) S1, working the double entendre....

msmoxie
07-20-2007, 03:40 PM
indeed, as only you can. (f)



:| Does that make us not all that? ..... AND a bag of chips??

;) S1, working the double entendre....

femmeextreme
07-24-2007, 02:18 PM
We've all heard the stereotypes: Butch lesbians wear too much flannel, clunky shoes and suffer from an excess of bad hair (mullet, anyone?). But that stereotype, which reflects a broad cultural discomfort with masculinity in women, has another side: the erotic. For those who like their lovers to be more genderqueer than traditionally feminine, butches rock the house.

I love this quote,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,BUTCHES SO ROCK

We femmes don't really get much butch eye candy, so at least when someone does a good portrayal, we have to give credit where it's due.

My fave is the old school butch of Chloe Sevigny, in If Walls Could Talk.

second, is Corky, and this is purely for the dynamics of her and Violet, ( the heat is palpable)
:P
Ddin't realise Queen Latifa was gay:$

Special thanks to MY OWN REAL LIFE BUTCH for showing me this thread.:P

Toughy
07-25-2007, 05:56 AM
Those 15 are butch as adjective (and barely that) rather than butch as noun.

BestButchBoy
07-28-2007, 06:14 AM
Does anyone know? Am I listed anywhere on here as one of the 15 HOTTEST butches?

DAMN!

LOL.

Just couldn't help myself...BB

GlamMama
07-28-2007, 06:42 AM
I had a huge crush on Harry for years. Used to hand at Red Dora's to swoon. Hot damn butch. Although my butch just scoffs at me over that. In a way that makes us both laugh.

<sorry, edited - realizing I didn't quote the post on Harry Dodge I was responding to, still learning my way around here>

GlamMama
07-28-2007, 06:48 AM
if i were in media--i would have done this differently.
as an intelligent and opinionated consumer, i am entertained by it, and i can recognize it's shortcomings.

so i guess sometimes a tanktop is not a tanktop, and a cow not a cow...a femme not a femme and a butch not a butch.....and....?????[/quote]

Yes, I would have done it differently too - and referenced less central-to-the-plot, but nonetheless butches worth mentioning, characters. Also, the white tank top thing made me laugh. My butch would NEVER show that much body in the world. It's not what she does. And the tank top, like the list, assumes a hollywood body type. There's no room for fat or conflicted, bound chests.

My baby is waking up, I hear her crying from the crib, so not much time to post more, but I'll add:

From the L-Word - the lawyer
From last week's episode of Big Love - Selma Green

There are more to mention, but not enough, because there just not enough mainstream representations of butches or femmes. Sigh.

quixotescurse
07-28-2007, 07:11 AM
I understand that the list (and most of the info on afterellen.com) is based on media influence and the Hollywood mind. However, if this were on a site that wasn't lesbian-based, I'd be more apt to feel comfortable with the sweeping generalizations.

Handy? Looks good in a white, ribbed tank?

Hell, I'm outta the running! Oh well, my wife is more than happy to look @ Joan Jett for a while! (tho' w/the shaved head, preferably) I can barely check my oil, let alone change it and with "girls" this big, ain't no way you'll see me in public in a ribbed white tee!

I think, by perpetrating the hot-women-who-play-butch, as lesbians (not as the overall American consumer or the guy who watches "The L Word" for a hard on), we're detracting from the overall essence of our B/F identities. That's why I loved the B/F calendar... my wife had the one from the year I was in it @ her desk and some straight girls said "Oh my god... all these women are soooo...." Her response: "Hot. I know!" The straight girl looked confused and wandered away.

Why does it have to be hot, FAMOUS butches, I wonder? Not that I'd make it on anyone's "top 15", but when I look at GayBoy mags or sites,they've got hot firemen, hot lawyers, hot cops, hot animal rights activists, etc... where are the "sexiest eligible bachelors" lists on our end? If we don't get frustrated by these lists that rely on worn stereotypes (again...handy? white tee?) then we're just settling for the norm, aren't we?

CatFemme43
08-24-2007, 02:17 PM
JANE LYNCH, who plays Tina's attorney on "THE L WORD"....HOT AND FUNNY AS HELL!!!

http://re3.mm-a6.yimg.com/image/3505920095 (http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images/view?back=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.search.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%2Fimages%3F_adv_prop%3Dimage%26va%3DJANE%2BLYNCH%26ei%3DUTF-8%26fr%3Dush1-mail%26b%3D41&w=90&h=126&imgurl=secondcity.com%2Fimages%2FJane_Lynch.jpg&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fsecondcity.com%2Fnews.php%3Fid%3D363&size=4.5kB&name=Jane_Lynch.jpg&p=JANE+LYNCH&type=jpeg&no=54&tt=478&oid=948a18b8aa854c92&ei=UTF-8)

Emmanuela
08-25-2007, 06:50 AM
I understand that the list (and most of the info on afterellen.com) is based on media influence and the Hollywood mind. However, if this were on a site that wasn't lesbian-based, I'd be more apt to feel comfortable with the sweeping generalizations.

Handy? Looks good in a white, ribbed tank?

Hell, I'm outta the running! Oh well, my wife is more than happy to look @ Joan Jett for a while! (tho' w/the shaved head, preferably) I can barely check my oil, let alone change it and with "girls" this big, ain't no way you'll see me in public in a ribbed white tee!

I think, by perpetrating the hot-women-who-play-butch, as lesbians (not as the overall American consumer or the guy who watches "The L Word" for a hard on), we're detracting from the overall essence of our B/F identities. That's why I loved the B/F calendar... my wife had the one from the year I was in it @ her desk and some straight girls said "Oh my god... all these women are soooo...." Her response: "Hot. I know!" The straight girl looked confused and wandered away.

Why does it have to be hot, FAMOUS butches, I wonder? Not that I'd make it on anyone's "top 15", but when I look at GayBoy mags or sites,they've got hot firemen, hot lawyers, hot cops, hot animal rights activists, etc... where are the "sexiest eligible bachelors" lists on our end? If we don't get frustrated by these lists that rely on worn stereotypes (again...handy? white tee?) then we're just settling for the norm, aren't we?


I've never seen "The L Word." (boo hiss, okay *s)

I've never been to afterellen.com (is that a bad thing?).

But I take your point, QC, and I'll rise to the challenge . . .

There are far greater than fifteen butches/masculine-identified individuals on this site alone who could roundly and soundly fill out such a list. I won't give names, cuz that's just unladylike . . . *s

General types, constructed by my lived experience, rather than by media representations, might be a good start, no?

In no particular order . . .

The Retro "Rat Pack" Look

The Metrosexual with a Sense of Fashion and Personal Style

The Cowboi in Real, Beaten Leather, Scented of Simple Soap

The Old-School Dandy with Flair, Charm, and Wit

The Athlete Who Works for Love of Movement

The Intellectual with an Amusing Acumen

The Geek with Cute Glasses, Adorably Awkward Limbs, and a Gift

The Hedonist, Whose Love of All Pleasures Glows with Warmth

The Shy, Soulful, Never-Preening Artist Who Graciously Allows Glimpses

The Passionate Romantic Who Pens Verse in Small Corners

The Bold Stud Who Dares to Care and Chooses Selectively

The Papi Suave Devoted to Home, Family, and Community

The Inked Rebel Biker with Exceptional Grace and Heart

The Bad Bois Who Just Demand That Second Glance

And, again, "Handy? Looks good in a white ribbed tank?" . . . well, that one stays *s I am personally blessed to know dozens of butches who fit that description, and wear it oh so well . . . mm hmm . . .

Now isn't this such a pleasing little thread . . . whew *s

~Emmanuela

Beau4afemme
08-25-2007, 01:55 PM
Lovely reply, Ms. Emmanuela. And I've seen some of your work from the links you've left on your request thread, which illustrates perfectly your soulful understanding of what's truly attractive about butches. Thank you for those and for this thoughtful post.(f)

Beau



I've never seen "The L Word." (boo hiss, okay *s)

I've never been to afterellen.com (is that a bad thing?).

But I take your point, QC, and I'll rise to the challenge . . .

There are far greater than fifteen butches/masculine-identified individuals on this site alone who could roundly and soundly fill out such a list. I won't give names, cuz that's just unladylike . . . *s

General types, constructed by my lived experience, rather than by media representations, might be a good start, no?

In no particular order . . .

The Retro "Rat Pack" Look

The Metrosexual with a Sense of Fashion and Personal Style

The Cowboi in Real, Beaten Leather, Scented of Simple Soap

The Old-School Dandy with Flair, Charm, and Wit

The Athlete Who Works for Love of Movement

The Intellectual with an Amusing Acumen

The Geek with Cute Glasses, Adorably Awkward Limbs, and a Gift

The Hedonist, Whose Love of All Pleasures Glows with Warmth

The Shy, Soulful, Never-Preening Artist Who Graciously Allows Glimpses

The Passionate Romantic Who Pens Verse in Small Corners

The Bold Stud Who Dares to Care and Chooses Selectively

The Papi Suave Devoted to Home, Family, and Community

The Inked Rebel Biker with Exceptional Grace and Heart

The Bad Bois Who Just Demand That Second Glance

And, again, "Handy? Looks good in a white ribbed tank?" . . . well, that one stays *s I am personally blessed to know dozens of butches who fit that description, and wear it oh so well . . . mm hmm . . .

Now isn't this such a pleasing little thread . . . whew *s

~Emmanuela

Emmanuela
08-25-2007, 04:15 PM
Lovely reply, Ms. Emmanuela. And I've seen some of your work from the links you've left on your request thread, which illustrates perfectly your soulful understanding of what's truly attractive about butches. Thank you for those and for this thoughtful post.(f)

Beau


My thanks, Insidiously Deviant Beau.

I am honored.


~Emmanuela