My Toronto Dilemma

[toomuchfire]

I am basically a very private Femme who no longer likes to air her business to the world but when it comes to making my Butch happy I will do what it takes. Here's my problem:

My Butch and I feel very isolated in this community. We are very Old School in our roles and it's a dynamic that naturally established itself. We're also older, 36 and 45. We often talk of going out more and doing things but whenever we venture out into "the community" that same old sense of isolation creeps in. When I look into my Butch's eyes I see a pain that comes from searching for familiarity and finding none. You see my woman is a hard working, working class older Stone. When we go to Slack's, a place she tolerates bcz her Lady ADORES their Jolly Rancher martinis, I see her discomfort. Hell, I feel uncomfortable. I look around and feel like I'm on the set of "The L Word". (Not that there's anything wrong with that except that it enhances our sense of being different.) Go to Tango's and, well, uh, not many old dykes there, ya gotta say.

So where do I take my woman to make her happy? Where is there a place for an older dyke couple very distinct in their Old School roles? Where can my Stone go to swig back a beer and swear like a trucker whilst in the company of those who are similar? Is there anywhere any more or is this just a sad pipe dream of mine?

Jeezus I feel all vulnerable now. Be gentle with me. This was not an easy trip.

[aprettydress]

i have no advice to offer you, but i think a lot of us are in the same boat.

good luck!!! :)

[toomuchfire]

i have no advice to offer you, but i think a lot of us are in the same boat.

good luck!!! :)
:) Thanks. *sigh*

[MsLinus]

What about hanging out with the rest of us BFers for brunches, bowling, etc.? We've done picnics on the Island, brunches at Hair o' the Dog, dim sum in China Town. Most of the time it's just get together to talk and such. :) Check out this Toronto Thread (http://www.butch-femme.com/portal/forums/showthread.php?p=2227555&#post2227555) for activities we plan. :)

[MsLinus]

I was thinking about this more and the other option is to also join those of us that are "part" of the West End Social Group. We often go to The Werx in Hamilton and it's a very relaxing atmosphere and lots of fun. We tend to play pool when we're there and then later go up for dancing (or more beer drinking/yapping). Also have game days and coffee gatherings. :)

I guess the question I'd be asking is are you looking to find more BFers or a place to go and just hang each evening?

[toomuchfire]

I was thinking about this more and the other option is to also join those of us that are "part" of the West End Social Group. We often go to The Werx in Hamilton and it's a very relaxing atmosphere and lots of fun. We tend to play pool when we're there and then later go up for dancing (or more beer drinking/yapping). Also have game days and coffee gatherings. :)

I guess the question I'd be asking is are you looking to find more BFers or a place to go and just hang each evening?
Hi MsLinus. Hanging out with people from here is definitely an option and someone has already graciously added me to the West End group. I guess in this instance I am looking more for places where my honey can go on her own (to get away from me...heh heh) or go with some Butch friends. I have a sinking feeling there just aren't places like that around anymore and that worries me. It's one thing for a Butch to have her/hys Femme but they need each other also (as you know) as well as a place where they can feel comfortable.

[MsLinus]

Hi MsLinus. Hanging out with people from here is definitely an option and someone has already graciously added me to the West End group. I guess in this instance I am looking more for places where my honey can go on her own (to get away from me...heh heh) or go with some Butch friends. I have a sinking feeling there just aren't places like that around anymore and that worries me. It's one thing for a Butch to have her/hys Femme but they need each other also (as you know) as well as a place where they can feel comfortable.

Ah.. I don't think there is a "bar" per say. I go out with Rez boi now and again (we meet up somewhere for dinner -- usually a pub kind of thing -- to have a few beers, maybe watch a game, etc.).

[toomuchfire]

Ah.. I don't think there is a "bar" per say. I go out with Rez boi now and again (we meet up somewhere for dinner -- usually a pub kind of thing -- to have a few beers, maybe watch a game, etc.).
Thanks a million, eh? I totally appreciate the input.....totally. I'll (we'll) no doubt see you around at one of the events. At least there ARE options, no? :)

[MsLinus]

Thanks a million, eh? I totally appreciate the input.....totally. I'll (we'll) no doubt see you around at one of the events. At least there ARE options, no? :)

Yup. Always options. I'm usually down in the TO area at least every two weeks (go for a massage) so I'm always up for a night of beer and yapping if need be. (if it includes burgers, I need a vegetarian option :) ) And I suck at pool but would be game. Same applies for poker. :)

[BardicSong]

Hi MsLinus. Hanging out with people from here is definitely an option and someone has already graciously added me to the West End group. I guess in this instance I am looking more for places where my honey can go on her own (to get away from me...heh heh) or go with some Butch friends. I have a sinking feeling there just aren't places like that around anymore and that worries me. It's one thing for a Butch to have her/hys Femme but they need each other also (as you know) as well as a place where they can feel comfortable.

Sweetie, my Murph has a similar dilemna going on. We've met some great people at BF and we enjoy the gatherings but I know that she needs to "hang with the bois" and there just doesn't seem to be that kind of place in downtown T.O. Murph's from the desert in SoCal originally and used to have a watering hole hy hung out at.

I guess the days of The Rose are gone because that was a comfortable atmosphere for just about everyone. Also, I agree Slacks can be like walking onto the set of the LWord and all the power to them.

PM me if you want to brainstorm on this further.

B.

[toomuchfire]

Sweetie, my Murph has a similar dilemna going on. We've met some great people at BF and we enjoy the gatherings but I know that she needs to "hang with the bois" and there just doesn't seem to be that kind of place in downtown T.O. Murph's from the desert in SoCal originally and used to have a watering hole hy hung out at.

I guess the days of The Rose are gone because that was a comfortable atmosphere for just about everyone. Also, I agree Slacks can be like walking onto the set of the LWord and all the power to them.

PM me if you want to brainstorm on this further.

B.



:) The Rose, yes. And even more recently there were the Chickita dances, not ideal but definitely a place where EVERYONE mixed, all ages, all class backgrounds, and it seemed to work. My GOD I miss those!!!!!!!!!!! I know S would have been far happier there. I will PM you to further brainstorm but it'll have to be in a few days, if that's okay. S and I are off to a cottage for the weekend.

And Ms Linus, you couldn't suck any worse at pool than I do so you've already got a shoe in. :) But when it comes to poker........S is pretty hot. Gotta love that! It's just so.......sexy! :)

[rohan]

I hear you, toomuchfire!

I also have a hard time finding butch / trans 'buddies' to hang with...I've got one really good butch buddy, but she's back in Vancouver, so we don't get to hang much, what with me and my girl being here in TO. I really miss yacking about English soccer teams / leagues, and not having to explain what I'm talking about to my grrl, who's REALLY NOT into sports!

Not sure if your butch would feel cool hanging out at a place like GoodHandy's, which (I'm told) is a safe space for trans folks and their allies, but they run drag king shows that are supposed to be a hoot. As someone who has embraced my butchness for many years, I've found community and 'buddies' within the trans community, as well as with butch-identified women.

Also: I have heard stories about the good old days at The Rose, and I'm wondering: If enough of us b-f and / or trans folks went to some TO spot and just took over...wouldn't that be kinda like carving out a space TOGETHER where we can hang out, swear like pirates (if we're of a mind to!), and socialize WITHOUT feeling like we don't belong?

This is what folks did in the 30's, the 40's, the 50's and the 60's to build community. We'd pick a bar or pub, and take up some space. Soon after, others would hear about it, and start to gravitate toward it. Since we don't have The Rose, can we make some of the local watering holes "rosier" for ourselves and others like us?

Just my 10 cents...

Rohan

[toomuchfire]

I hear you, toomuchfire!

I also have a hard time finding butch / trans 'buddies' to hang with...I've got one really good butch buddy, but she's back in Vancouver, so we don't get to hang much, what with me and my girl being here in TO. I really miss yacking about English soccer teams / leagues, and not having to explain what I'm talking about to my grrl, who's REALLY NOT into sports!

Not sure if your butch would feel cool hanging out at a place like GoodHandy's, which (I'm told) is a safe space for trans folks and their allies, but they run drag king shows that are supposed to be a hoot. As someone who has embraced my butchness for many years, I've found community and 'buddies' within the trans community, as well as with butch-identified women.

Also: I have heard stories about the goold old days at The Rose, and I'm wondering: If enough of us b-f and / or trans folks went to some TO spot and just took over...wouldn't that be kinda like carving out a space TOGETHER where we can hang out, swear like pirates (if we're of a mind to!), and socialize WITHOUT feeling like we don't belong?

This is what folks did in the 30's, the 40's, the 50's and the 60's to build community. We'd pick a bar or pub, and take up some space. Soon after, others would hear about it, and start to gravitate toward it. Since we don't have The Rose, can we make some of the local watering holes "rosier" for ourselves and others like us?

Just my 10 cents...

Rohan
Rohan, I'd say your 10 cents are worth more than that. That is one wonderful idea.....but do people even gather regularly anymore? Geez, the more I'm having this conversation the more questions I'm coming up with. It's good, it means the grey matter is still working.

Sue doesn't have anyone but her bio guy friends with whom she can watch football and bet ProLine but these aren't people she can lament to about her Lady being on fire and higher maintenance than usual. And, like you, Rohan, the one Butch she can do that with is moving, also to Vancouver.

K, coffee and packing calls. I must be my little responsible Femme self. Ta for now!

[BardicSong]

:) The Rose, yes. And even more recently there were the Chickita dances, not ideal but definitely a place where EVERYONE mixed, all ages, all class backgrounds, and it seemed to work. My GOD I miss those!!!!!!!!!!! I know S would have been far happier there. I will PM you to further brainstorm but it'll have to be in a few days, if that's okay. S and I are off to a cottage for the weekend.

And Ms Linus, you couldn't suck any worse at pool than I do so you've already got a shoe in. :) But when it comes to poker........S is pretty hot. Gotta love that! It's just so.......sexy! :)

Murph wants to round up a poker table. Hy misses playing with the old bail bondsman hy hung out with, talk about cussing and spitting! LOL!

Have a great weekend. We just came back after new years from a nice cottage winter getaway. Enjoy yourselves!

B.

[BardicSong]

I hear you, toomuchfire!

I also have a hard time finding butch / trans 'buddies' to hang with...I've got one really good butch buddy, but she's back in Vancouver, so we don't get to hang much, what with me and my girl being here in TO. I really miss yacking about English soccer teams / leagues, and not having to explain what I'm talking about to my grrl, who's REALLY NOT into sports!

Not sure if your butch would feel cool hanging out at a place like GoodHandy's, which (I'm told) is a safe space for trans folks and their allies, but they run drag king shows that are supposed to be a hoot. As someone who has embraced my butchness for many years, I've found community and 'buddies' within the trans community, as well as with butch-identified women.

Also: I have heard stories about the good old days at The Rose, and I'm wondering: If enough of us b-f and / or trans folks went to some TO spot and just took over...wouldn't that be kinda like carving out a space TOGETHER where we can hang out, swear like pirates (if we're of a mind to!), and socialize WITHOUT feeling like we don't belong?

This is what folks did in the 30's, the 40's, the 50's and the 60's to build community. We'd pick a bar or pub, and take up some space. Soon after, others would hear about it, and start to gravitate toward it. Since we don't have The Rose, can we make some of the local watering holes "rosier" for ourselves and others like us?

Just my 10 cents...

Rohan

Rohan, this sounds like a very doable idea. Something to think about.

Also, why don't one of you bois start a thread about getting a "Toronto Bois Night Out" going. Personally, I have no issue with my butch hanging with other butches and just letting loose.

B.

[rohan]

Hey tmf,

I'm glad you found the suggestion helpful.

Like Sue, I come from very working class roots...my dad was a welder, and my mom does blue collar work in health care. They worked their butts off so that I could go to university and have the chances that their families couldn't provide them with.

Because of their hard work and encouragement, I've had the privilege to study lesbian / gay / queer histories as a scholar. Not surprisingly, I gravitated towards histories of butch-femme communities in North America. One thing I found - over and over again - is unswerving evidence of just how resilient femmes and butches have been in building communities.

So, when I think about all the changes that have happened in the world in the past 100 years; when I think about the violence, intolerance, police harrassment, etc. that butches and femmes survived and thrived in spite of...I can't help but feel inspired. If they could carve out little spaces here and there in bars, if they could build communities around bars, pubs, softball leagues, etc...then we certainly can! I'm not saying all is rosy (pardon the pun) and that we don't experience harassment or discrimination - of course we do. But, compared to previous generations of b-f's, we have SO much more access to the world.

So...if folks could find each other when it was ILLEGAL to dress butch, to dance with another woman, etc...I'm thinking we can take a page outta their book, and TAKE UP some of the space that we now have access to as a result of their (and others') struggles...

Okay...maybe that was 25 cents...*smile*

Rohan

[toomuchfire]

Hey tmf,

I'm glad you found the suggestion helpful.

Like Sue, I come from very working class roots...my dad was a welder, and my mom does blue collar work in health care. They worked their butts off so that I could go to university and have the chances that their families couldn't provide them with.

Because of their hard work and encouragement, I've had the privilege to study lesbian / gay / queer histories as a scholar. Not surprisingly, I gravitated towards histories of butch-femme communities in North America. One thing I found - over and over again - is unswerving evidence of just how resilient femmes and butches have been in building communities.

So, when I think about all the changes that have happened in the world in the past 100 years; when I think about the violence, intolerance, police harrassment, etc. that butches and femmes survived and thrived in spite of...I can't help but feel inspired. If they could carve out little spaces here and there in bars, if they could build communities around bars, pubs, softball leagues, etc...then we certainly can! I'm not saying all is rosy (pardon the pun) and that we don't experience harassment or discrimination - of course we do. But, compared to previous generations of b-f's, we have SO much more access to the world.

So...if folks could find each other when it was ILLEGAL to dress butch, to dance with another woman, etc...I'm thinking we can take a page outta their book, and TAKE UP some of the space that we now have access to as a result of their (and others') struggles...

Okay...maybe that was 25 cents...*smile*

Rohan
I, personally, would like to see us come out of the woodwork. I crave a more Butch-Femme presence in the community (that isn't much my community when it says things like "If you wanted to be with a man......."). But let's be honest, so many Butches are stubborn creatures who have been burned many, MANY a time by "the community" and the world at large. After a time they seem to retreat and, well, if "the wives" don't haul them out and force them to speak with one another they continue their love affairs with their couches and their TV converters. This, by the way, is not a criticism in the least. I wince at the circumstances that drive Butches into hiding. As a Femme I can certainly "pass" in just about any world and get my "girlie" time from several different sources. Not so for my loved one.

[rohan]

All too true, tmf!

If I had a dime for every time my girl has had to hear things like, "when you get tired of the strap-on, come and see me" from a bio-guy, I'd be very, very rich.

This kind of crap - and the B.S., ignorance, hostility, and other daily violences - that butches and femmes put up with DOES make us retreat. I see so many of my butch brothers walking with their heads down...it hurts my heart. I see femmes bearing the kinds of ignorant ridicule from straight and gay folks that makes me want to spit nails and throw punches.

I understand how we can sometimes internalize the shame that others try to inflict on us...and / or that we just get fed up and GIVE up...my suggestion that we take up / take back so-called queer spaces grows out of my own experience with this bullshit...

At the end of the day, for me, being out with OTHER folks like me reminds me that I have the RIGHT to be; that my grrl has the right to love whomever SHE chooses, and not who our screwed up society would choose FOR her; that we have a right to socialize together, to build community, etc.

I know, I'm preaching to the choir here. LOL

I guess I'm saying that I understand and respect why many of us choose to stay in most nights, or have folks over for dinner, etc. Me and my grrl are very much home-bodies, for sure, and the crap that we hear - not only from straight folks, but from OTHER QUEERS - is a lot to deal with. I would never judge anyone who makes a strategic choice to retreat from all the bull out there in the world. Sometimes it's the best way to stay sane. Sometimes I just don't have the energy to pull on my armor in preparation for a night out...

For me...all this adds up to really cherishing the moments when I AM out in the world with others like myself...when we can laugh so loud the whole room turns to look; when we can simply sit over a beer and the enjoy the game...when we take up space on the sidewalk with our ladies on our arms and unapologetically look right back in the faces of those who are surprised to see us out in the world - look right back in their faces, and think, "Fuck 'em!".

Rohan

[toomuchfire]

All too true, tmf!

If I had a dime for every time my girl has had to hear things like, "when you get tired of the strap-on, come and see me" from a bio-guy, I'd be very, very rich.

This kind of crap - and the B.S., ignorance, hostility, and other daily violences - that butches and femmes put up with DOES make us retreat. I see so many of my butch brothers walking with their heads down...it hurts my heart. I see femmes bearing the kinds of ignorant ridicule from straight and gay folks that makes me want to spit nails and throw punches.

I understand how we can sometimes internalize the shame that others try to inflict on us...and / or that we just get fed up and GIVE up...my suggestion that we take up / take back so-called queer spaces grows out of my own experience with this bullshit...

At the end of the day, for me, being out with OTHER folks like me reminds me that I have the RIGHT to be; that my grrl has the right to love whomever SHE chooses, and not who our screwed up society would choose FOR her; that we have a right to socialize together, to build community, etc.

I know, I'm preaching to the choir here. LOL

I guess I'm saying that I understand and respect why many of us choose to stay in most nights, or have folks over for dinner, etc. Me and my grrl are very much home-bodies, for sure, and the crap that we hear - not only from straight folks, but from OTHER QUEERS - is a lot to deal with. I would never judge anyone who makes a strategic choice to retreat from all the bull out there in the world. Sometimes it's the best way to stay sane. Sometimes I just don't have the energy to pull on my armor in preparation for a night out...

For me...all this adds up to really cherishing the moments when I AM out in the world with others like myself...when we can laugh so loud the whole room turns to look; when we can simply sit over a beer and the enjoy the game...when we take up space on the sidewalk with our ladies on our arms and unapologetically look right back in the faces of those who are surprised to see us out in the world - look right back in their faces, and think, "Fuck 'em!".

Rohan
*getting a little misty* HERE HERE!!!!!!!!!! Let's go get 'em! lol And I'm only half joking here.

[BardicSong]

Sometimes, it's not so much the straights who gives us grief but our own lesbian community who do not understand the butch-femme phenomenon...AND MURPH, DO NOT think you can use that phrase in bed tonight when you're calling your might mating call!

...like I can tell hym anything.

B.

[toomuchfire]

Sometimes, it's not so much the straights who gives us grief but our own lesbian community who do not understand the butch-femme phenomenon...AND MURPH, DO NOT think you can use that phrase in bed tonight when you're calling your might mating call!

...like I can tell hym anything.

B.
True. I'm frequently seen as the anti-lesbian and anti-feminist bcz of my relationship dynamic plus the fact that I'm a happy, healthy housewife. I'm frequently seen as a deluded straight woman who will leave my partner for a man as soon as I come to my senses. grrrrrrrrrr Nothing fires me up more.

K, for real I'm turning this box off! Sue should be here soon to lament about how many bags I'm dragging up to the cottage. Oops! heh heh

Be well all! And thanks for the conversation. I needed it. :)

[Acidic]

Hey T,

I know I pm'd you about next Friday's at Goodhandy's.....but we need to get our Butches out :)

I hear ya about femme invisibility......and being partnered to a visible Butch sure rocks the straight world at times.

Hope you and S have fun this weekend, drop me a line after, we'll meet up soon.

[Kit Kat]

oops I had Acidic's log in......well ya know it was ME ;)

[murphy]

....the butch-femme phenomenon...AND MURPH, DO NOT think you can use that phrase in bed tonight when you're calling your might mating call!

...like I can tell hym anything.

B.

hehehehe
awww gee but honey
the butch-femme phenomenon. was and is fabulous
;)

[toomuchfire]

oops I had Acidic's log in......well ya know it was ME ;)
Phew! Kit Kat, I was totally confused having never received a pm from Acidic. I figured it was the cold from up north and some snow blindness combined. lol Clearly, we're back....all of us! :P

Anyway, we found out on Friday that S has a surgery this coming Friday so, for obvious reasons, Goodhandy's is out. *sigh* Talk about a dunk back into "reality" pronto! Yikes!

[rohan]

There will be other Fridays and other drag shows, tmf...

We'll be holding a good thought for your friend who is having surgery...

peace,
Rohan

[toomuchfire]

There will be other Fridays and other drag shows, tmf...

We'll be holding a good thought for your friend who is having surgery...

peace,
Rohan
:) Thanks, Rohan. All good thoughts are appreciated. I look forward to other outings.

[BardicSong]

TMF! I got your pm but I've been a little busy this week. Any ideas about how to get our butches out? I know Murph thought of a Superbowl Sunday gathering down in the Village but you two are busy. This would have been a good opportunity to "reclaim space" as discussed above.

I guess we'll just have to keep thinking this one over.

Just bumpin' this thread,

B.

[toomuchfire]

Hi Bardic!

No, I'm out of ideas for now. I feel like like is moving WAY too quickly since we got back and I'm a little preoccupied. If I have any thoughts I'll certainly let you know. Hope you'll do the same.

[tourboi]

And Oh my Gosh!!! This brings a tear to my eyes as I remember I felt so at home when The Chez or Chez Moi was alive and well at one time. I to this day miss that place. I miss it, I miss my butch brothers and the sunday nite parking lot fights with butches fighting over their femmes...Man! sorry but I am just remenesing<=spelling? I know what it means to hang out with butches, I miss it. I have two good butch bois I hang out with and have boi's nites out. I think this could be a start of a new releationship. So how bout it boi's put your hands up if you all would like a Saturday nite out. We can talk about where we can go to stir up some shit! What do you think? Tour boi