Academic Bill of Rights?

[Urbanivy]

I considered putting this info in a few different threads (ex. roll call for teachers, bush is still pres) but no matter how I phrased it, it read like a derailment. But after 2 sleepless nights trying to get my head around this, I'm very curious as to what members of this community think about this:

www.alligator.org/pt2/050323freedom.php

Summary:

The Academic Bill of Rights: This bill would permit disgruntled students to sue professors and universities who do not 'respect' their 'beliefs'. It has passed one committee hearing but has two more to go.

The Bill, sponsored by Rep. Dennis Baxley, R-Ocala, passed 8-2 dispite strenuous objections from the only 2 democrats on the committee.

Baxley cites an example of when he thinks a student should sue their prof: "Some professors say, 'Evolution is a fact. I don't want to hear about Intelligent Design (a creationist theory) and if you don't like it, there's the door.'"

During the commitee hearing, Baxley said his opposition consisted of 'leftists' struggling against 'mainstream society'.

A member of this opposition, Rep. Eleanor Sobel, D-Hollywood said, "The big hand of state government is going into the universities telling them how to teach. This bill is the antithesis of academic freedom."

I'd provide a link to the proposed Bill, but the page where it was displayed has disappeared. Apologies for that omission.

Respectfully, I am really interested in hearing from students, teachers, people with kids in Uni or College, anyone in Florida (where this bill is being proposed), or anyone, actually, with a reaction to this. Having been a teacher, having put myself through Uni and respecting the controversial profs who broadened my mind and demanded that I explain my 'beliefs' and 'opinions'... this just knocks me on my butt.

Any input? (f)

[caroline_8]

Urbanivy,

I'm really interested in this. I had a student refuse to watch BOWLING FOR COLUMBINE, because it was Rated "R." She said her "religious beliefs" prevented her from watching R Rated movies. I ended up giving her an alternate assignment simply because I was so shocked.

I had a student write me a letter and cry in my office, because AMERICAN HISTORY X upset her. She ended up coming around to see that she couldn't ignore things that made her upset, and we had a productive conversation.

While I try my best to respect ALL of my students, I will never let ignorance fly in my classroom as "someone's opinion." People who argue shit in my class need to be able to "come off the porch," so to speak. I would like to think that I am engaged enough that I call bad "leftist" arguments out.

I can't wait to read more. Thanks again for providing this!
Caroline

[Addiction]

I'll say this... I don't think a professor should be able to lower a student's grade because they do not agree with them. I think agree with me or you're wrong is dictating, not teaching. Professors should help students to create their own opinions.

[Urbanivy]

Caroline: Thank you for taking the time to respond. (f) Kudos to you for providing your students with an opportunity to interact with ideas that may irk them, but will ultimately give them an opportunity to see the other side of the coin.

Just a thought. Do you think that if you hadn't provided an alternate assignment to the student in the first instance you described... just pure speculation here... do you think that student would've sued you if she could?

Addiction: We meet again! (f) I agree that professors shouldn't give students bad marks if the student doesn't agree with them. Professors are invested in giving students the ability to explain themselves, to research and to think critically. Good point. But I don't see what that has to do with students being given the legal right to sue their profs or universities over 'beliefs' and 'opinions'. If you could clear up the connection I'd really appreciate it. Thanks! :)

[caroline_8]

Addiction,

Well said! I have given tons of As to students who have completely different political beliefs. I tell my students on the first day that it's all about making a good argument. More students than I would like to admit try to get an easy A by playing into what they think I want to hear, and it often backfires on them, because they haven't thought their argument through.

I often deal with these issues by talking about how to use rhetoric, as well as considering purpose and audience. It's a job, that is for sure!

Urbanivy,

Sadly, yes, I think she would have sued me. THIS ONE PARTICULAR STUDENT was smug and self-assured. Luckily, she didn't disrupt class or anything, but she definitely had the attitude that she was oppressed because she was Christian, and that, in my opinion, is pure bullshit.

Christianity is still privileged in this culture, and while there may be discrimination against Christians in individual circumstances, Christianity is still the privileged discourse. Just my 2 cents.

One of my Women's & Gender Studies' students said that there was a revolt in her Culture and Religion class, because some woman kept disrupting class and spewing classist ideas. The professor didn't know how to handle the woman.

I NOW put a "clause" in my syllabus stating that there will be no hate speech, racism, sexism or homophobia in my class. We talk about the goal of the class, which is often to make an effective argument. We also discuss the difference between argument and opinion. I tell them that I don't necessarily care what their opinions about any give thing is, because I can't grade them on their opinion. We talk about appropriate topics and how to become informed.

Caroline

[Addiction]

Addiction: We meet again! (f) I agree that professors shouldn't give students bad marks if the student doesn't agree with them. Professors are invested in giving students the ability to explain themselves, to research and to think critically. Good point. But I don't see what that has to do with students being given the legal right to sue their profs or universities over 'beliefs' and 'opinions'. If you could clear up the connection I'd really appreciate it. Thanks! :)

If a student can prove they have suffered (it hurt their gpa, for example) because a professor did not agree with their beliefs, I think they should be able to sue. However, I'm not for suing over hurt feelings... there's got to be something lost by the student. They lost a good grade, and therefor lost a chance at a scholarship they wanted to apply for, etc.

This gets messy too because I think a student would need to assert "this is my belief" and not state something as fact to be able to later say they feel they deserve damages from a professor. And on topics like evolution, for say testing purposes, if a professor was to state on an exam "this is an exam on evolution based on _____ theory," I don't think a student should be able to say they don't believe in that theory (well... they can say it) so they're going to answer the questions based on what they believe of evolution.

I don't know if I'm making any sense. I'm on Vicks 44. :s

edited to add: Hi :)

[Urbanivy]

I don't know if I'm making any sense. I'm on Vicks 44. :s


You're making perfect sense. And thanks for clearing that up for me. BTW, I hope you feel better soon...

*passes Addiction a box of soft tissues and some fresh honey & lemon tea*

I agree that students should have some form of recourse if they can prove that a teacher or prof has given them a bad mark for some reason that isn't academic. But... they already do. There are plenty of ways that a student can take action within the educational system as it is if they have a beef (any beef!). I think we're in agreement that taking a prof to court (think of the personal expense to the educator) over a 'belief' or 'opinion' is just plain over reaction. But that's exactly what's being proposed with the Academic Bill of Rights. It really makes my head spin.

Caroline: Smart move with the clause on your syllabus. (y) And thank you for your observations! Your students are lucky to have you.

All of this really feels like an Academic McCarthyism to me. Baxley could call the bill The Happy-Unity-Smart-Togetherness Bill if he wanted, but that wouldn't change the intent. I think that this bill is being pushed to enforce stricter guidelines of what can and cannot be taught by silencing through deterents (sp?). That's just my belief, though... (ooooh, I just got snarky! But this has got my blood boiling...)

[Urbanivy]

I just read a fantastic and passionate piece written by Jacqueline Marcus, who teaches Philosophy at Cuesta College, about the "Academic Bill of Rights" and I had to put it in here before I take a bit of a break from the web.

www.commondreams.org/views05/0328-30.htm

Targeted by Conservatives for Teaching Philosophy
House bill aimed to restrain academic scholars with legal threats

a quick excerpt:

"... This explains why conservatives are now going after college teachers. Given the massive media control, it's the last arena left where students are introduced to a humane and rational approach to serious moral issues, where they'll be exposed to critical analysis."

"The intended goal of this bill is to allow students the opportunity to express FOXTV lies and misinformation, and their conservative views, in the classroom without teachers getting in the way. If the teachers challenge their Limbaugh or Hannity views, then the teacher will be sued, tarred & feathered, and thrown into prison in the name of "Academic Freedom"."

[caroline_8]

Urbanivy,

Thanks for this info! I'm going to share this with my WGST class next week and see what they think. I'm particularly interested in this class, because we've discussed controversial issues, such as abortion, Republican conservatism and how it affects women and religion.

:D Caroline

[Urbanivy]

Caroline: You're very welcome. (f) How did the class go?

.....
Has anyone checked out a site called Media Matters? It's a group that is reporting solely on misinformation they've found in the media. Here's what they were able to dig up on the 'facts' Horowitz is citing in his push for the bill:

http://mediamatters.org/items/200503080001


Media Repeat Unsubstantiated Horowitz Tale of Anti-Conservative Bias on Campus

snip

As part of a campaign to promote an "Academic Bill of Rights" on College and University campuses, conservative pundit David Horowitz has repeatedly cited an incident in which he claims that a criminology professor at the University of Northern Colorado asked students to explain "why President Bush is a war criminal" for a mid-term exam essay, then failed a student who chose instead to explain why Saddam Hussein is a war criminal. Horowitz claimed that this student testified about her experience at a special hearing before the Colorado state legislature in Dec 2003. But Horowitz has never provided the names of the professor or the student, and transcripts of the hearing to which Horowitz himself linked do not mention the incident. Nonetheless, accounts of the alleged incedent have been repeated in several national media outlets.

snip

The transcript itself contains no mention of the "University of Northern Colorado", "Saddam Hussein", "war criminal", "war crimes", "criminology" or anything else to indicate that any such incident was discussed at the hearing.

snip

Notwithstanding his failure to document the alleged incident, Horowitz has repeatedly pushed this story as an example of what he considers anti-conservative bias in America's univerities... Other publications have cited the alleged incident, including The Christian Science Monitor; The New York Sun; and an op ed on OpinionJournal.com, the website of the Wall St Journal's editorial page... No references to the alleged incident cite specific details, such as a date or the name of the student, the professor or the course.

snip

Mano Singham, the Director of Case Western University's Center for Innovation in Teaching & Education, described his own fruitlesss efforts to locate the professor in question in a March 4th op-ed in the Cleveland Plain Dealer:

"So, I called the acting head of the political science department, the dean's office and the provost's office at the University of Northern Colorado and asked them if they knew anything more. They had never heard of this story and were suprised to hear that they were supposedly harbouring this fiend. You would think they would have known since any student grievance against the professor would surely have been a high-profile case, at least reported in the local newspaper.

"I was baffled. But then, on April 6 2004, Horowitz sent me in a different direction when he gave an interview on NPR, he said that this story was part of testimony given by students at a special hearing at the state legislature in Colorado, called to look into alleged abuses of this kind.

"So I obtained the transcripts of the Colorado legislature hearings. But, mysteriously, no such testimony appeared there."

aaaand... snip

.....

Has anyone encountered this U of NC example in the media? Has the group managed to cite specific references to any actual event directly yet? :s

[Urbanivy]

One more and I'm done for the night.

I'm digging back to Sept 20, 2003 to find an initial reaction from an extreme far-righter to the proposed bill. So, before the media filter and "talking points":


David Limbaugh, author of "Persecution: How Liberals are Waging War Against Christianity"
Champions Horowitz's "Delicious Academic Bill of Rights"

"Conservative scholar-warrior David Horowitz has the left in an apoplexy over his ingenious proposal for an Academic Bill of Rights that would forbid university faculty from hiring, firing, and granting or denying promotion or tenure on the basis of political beliefs. Hysterical Liberals are screaming "quota" and "McCarthyism", neither of which has any basis in rationality.

snip

"Liberals have gotten to the point that they throw out "McCarthyism" practically every time they get caught in the act. Their name-calling is designed to divert our attention from the merits of the Horowitz proposal. How dare anyone challenge their title deed to their indoctrination factories?

snip

"University administrators overwhelmingly invite liberal speakers to deliver commencement addresses. When conservatives are invited to speak, they are often subject to ridicule and contempt.

There is more, so much more, but this is the bottom line: Horowitz is dead on, and his opponents are either in denial or being disingenuous. The Liberal monopoly on college campuses exsists -- shamefully so. It's relevant, and it matters. Bravo to David Horowitz for fighting back."

For the whole kit & caboodle: www.townhall.com/columnists/davidlimbaugh/dl20030920.shtml

Not a whole lot to go on. But it was worth it to read Limbaugh call anybody else 'hysterical'. :o

Please note: Limbaugh is not being used here to represent what I think conservatives think about the bill. It is an extreme op-ed from a very extreme guy. As Horowitz seems to be very extremely far-right as well & Limbaugh seems to think Horowitz is the best thing since sliced bread, I think it's worth a read.

[Urbanivy]

Update on this thread.

A friend sent this article to me (thanks tommy) and I thought it was appropriate to include here.

Assassinating the Intelligensia

www.blueoregon.com/2005/05/assassinating_t.html

snip

... St PSU,... a panel of academicians spoke calmly but urgently on the matter of "Academic Freedom Under Siege." Unbeknownst to most of us, the neo-conservatives have been taking a mighty swipe at academia, that last bastion of critical thought. They've targeted female, foreign and minority professors, "outing" them as leftist liberal intellectuals. If you don't believe it, check out a popular new website, www.studentsforacademicfreedom.org .

Like any other "Bushism," the title is a gross misnomer. Instead of opening a discussion of academic freedom, the site has created a forum for conservative students to rail against faculty and "inform on" controversial professors who criticize the US policy in Iraq. The site also suggests that legislative funding for public universities should be linked to promotion of "equal" agendas, including those of the Christian right, who feel disenfranchised by the liberal bent on most campuses.

snip

Hostility toward intellectuals is nothing new among power-hungry regimes. Take, for example, the Khmer Rouge, who, emulating Stalin's model, murdered thousands of doctors, lawyers, philosophers, writers and university professors a mere 30 years ago. As for Stalin, the "intelligensia class" was among the first groups targeted for his Great Purges of the 1930s and 40s. Survivors (and those with the foresight to flee) came, in large part, to America, where they found thriving academic and scientific communities. With the exception of the McCarthy era, the US has always been a refuge for inventors, innovators and progressive thinkers. Although the NEH (National Endowment for the Humanities), acting under the influence of the current administration, cannot be compared to the tyrannies of Stalin and Pol Pot, we would be wise to watch this issue closely. Otherwise, the result could be similar: a brain drain, or dumbing down of American higher learning, which would leave us struggling for generations to regain the civil society we have lost.

End snippage

I've spent a bit of time on the SAF site and now understand their intent a little better than I did a few months ago. My confusion regarding this matter has largely dissipated, but the intent of this thread remains the same.

If there are any who want to discuss this "Bill of Rights" or anything related to it, please feel free to do so here. (f)

What are your thoughts on the SAF? Horowitz?

Respectfully & In Solidarity,
Ivy

[tommy]

Beautiful Ivy,

Very well done.....I like it.

tommy

[Urbanivy]

... now I'm all chuffed. :)

Thank you, tommy, for the article and the kudos.

Ivy

[tommy]

ut oh, let me know and I'll move out of the way of any flying detritus.

I thought you were heading out...

Well you do have a gift for expression.

tommy

[Urbanivy]

lol...

Duck.

:|

Yes, I was out. Now I'm back. Again.

I got caught up in the whatreallyhappened site. It's so well put together...

chuffed:adj. (slang) Happy.

Would you mind if I posted a link to your "dumbing down" thread? There was alot discussed there that ties in with the "Academic Bill of Rights".

Ivy

[tommy]

lol...

Duck.

:|

Yes, I was out. Now I'm back. Again.

I got caught up in the whatreallyhappened site. It's so well put together...

chuffed:adj. (slang) Happy.

Would you mind if I posted a link to your "dumbing down" thread? There was alot discussed there that ties in with the "Academic Bill of Rights".

Ivy

LOL,

I found myself lost on that long .long list, too.

Yes please post on the Dumbing thread. I'LL *run over* and check it out.

tommy (*)

[tommy]

I hope this fits here, there is a school involved, an intellectual writer Margaret Atwood 'The Handmaid's Tale :" et al... it probably fits better in the Dumbing thread...tommy



Kansans seek to ban Atwood story


May 16, 2005 5:34 PM EDT

OVERLAND PARK, Kan., May 16, 2005 (United Press International via COMTEX) -- Two prominent Johnson County, Kan., residents want to remove a Margaret Atwood short story from Blue Valley North High School's curriculum.

Charley Morasch, an unsuccessful candidate this year for the Blue Valley School Board, and Roger Kemp, whose daughter was murdered in 2002 after an attempted rape, want the high school library to remove a literary anthology that includes Atwood's short story titled "Rape Fantasies," the Kansas City Star reported.

The work of fiction - describing some women's sexual fantasies and what they might try to do to escape a potential rapist -- is part of an anthology entitled "Literature: Structure, Sound & Sense" that is used in the school's college-level Advanced Placement courses.

Similar challenges in the school district involving 14 novels for vulgar language and violent imagery have been unsuccessful.


http://start.earthlink.net/article/ent?guid=20050516/42881ac0_29e_67020050516-455504481


tommy (*)

[tommy]

The Academic Bill of Rights: This bill would permit disgruntled students to sue professors and universities who do not 'respect' their 'beliefs'. It has passed one committee hearing but has two more to go.

The Bill, sponsored by Rep. Dennis Baxley, R-Ocala, passed 8-2 dispite strenuous objections from the only 2 democrats on the committee.

Baxley cites an example of when he thinks a student should sue their prof: "Some professors say, 'Evolution is a fact. I don't want to hear about Intelligent Design (a creationist theory) and if you don't like it, there's the door.'"

During the commitee hearing, Baxley said his opposition consisted of 'leftists' struggling against 'mainstream society'.

A member of this opposition, Rep. Eleanor Sobel, D-Hollywood said, "The big hand of state government is going into the universities telling them how to teach. This bill is the antithesis of academic freedom."


This is a typical right wing approach.


Polarization Students vs Teachers. Well those two are always two objective positions. lol

Accusing the left up and down word for word exactly what they are doing. SO while they are stealing your eyes out of your head, they will preface their debate with how you always do that. They never stray from this one. The worthy opponent should never come back from a defense posture. Always come out swinging.

next polarized positions. Liberal vs conservative or liberals vs the American People.

Evolution vs Intelligent Design (a creationist theory) or any science versus their deity's explanation.

The right always comes from the position that they represent the position of the people, or that their positions are always mainstream.



tommy (*) [/b][/color][/size]

[Urbanivy]

Yes please post on the Dumbing thread. I'LL *run over* and check it out.


Oh, please don't *run*... lol...

What I meant was this:

To anybody reading this thread who's interested in a whole mess of incredibly well-spoken bunch of folks speaking about their take on the education situation today, check this out...
www.butch-femme.com/portal/forums/showthread.php?t=18994&highlight=dumbing

That was what I meant by 'posting a link to your thread'. I hope you don't mind.

On with our regularly scheduled de-programming...

Margaret Atwood rocks. & Censorship is the crux of this push to restrain profs and (by extension) their students. The article fits fine here.

Perhaps I should've named this thread: Who's trying to shut you up today?

I think if the extreme far right could get a gag order passed for anyone with a different viewpoint, they would. Oh wait, that's what they're pushing with this Bill of Rights... I forgot. :(

[Urbanivy]

Polarization Students vs Teachers thats alway two objective positions.


Just to take one point and expand on it...

If any government wants to push an agenda, Polarization is how it begins. Without a doubt. The identification of an 'other' as the source of your woes, whether it's the 'deterioration of family values' or 'godless classrooms', is the first thing you'll hear about... often before the agenda is even set out for the public.

The current targets are minorities of every kind, journalists, and academics (incl philosophers, artists, etc).

Also, I think it's standard propaganda for a repressive group to id themselves with 'the people', identifying immediately all those who don't agree with them (again by extension) the other.

Good points, tommy.

Ivy

[tommy]

Oh, please don't *run*... lol...

What I meant was this:

To anybody reading this thread who's interested in a whole mess of incredibly well-spoken bunch of folks speaking about their take on the education situation today, check this out...
www.butch-femme.com/portal/forums/showthread.php?t=18994&highlight=dumbing

That was what I meant by 'posting a link to your thread'. I hope you don't mind.

On with our regularly scheduled de-programming...

Margaret Atwood rocks. & Censorship is the crux of this push to restrain profs and (by extension) their students. The article fits fine here.

Perhaps I should've named this thread: Who's trying to shut you up today?

I think if the extreme far right could get a gag order passed for anyone with a different viewpoint, they would. Oh wait, that's what they're pushing with this Bill of Rights... I forgot. :(


LOL. Margaret was on C-SPAN2 this weekend. ha ha ha.

"I think if the extreme far right could get a gag order passed for anyone with a different viewpoint, they would. Oh wait, that's what they're pushing with this Bill of Rights... I forgot"

LOL. This is excellent excellent excellent.

now my silliness.
Have you ever heard the USA senator Byrd talk. He sounds like W C Fields.
He was carrying a little booklet with the constitution in it while arguing with Frist. Frist was talking around while the senator was addressing him.

You know the democrats and republicans are miles apart.

The democrats sound like people of honor and wisdom and timelessness. Many cuts above the pale.

It must be a wonderful job. Can you imagine getting paid to contemplate, deliberate nuances, ideas. I think the republicans we hear from bring the job down levels.

Spector is a pretty balanced Republican. Most the others sound like robots.

tommy (*)

[Urbanivy]

Have you ever heard the USA senator Byrd talk?

No, but I've read him. Such a persuasive, gentlemanly and intelligent debator. I can't even imagine Frist trying to go head to head with him... lol...

So, is it true that the SAF want as much time devoted to Intelligent Design as is to Evolution Theory in Science classes? Or am I over simplifying again?

*actually off for the night this time*

Ivy

[tommy]

No, but I've read him. Such a persuasive, gentlemanly and intelligent debator. I can't even imagine Frist trying to go head to head with him... lol...

So, is it true that the SAF want as much time devoted to Intelligent Design as is to Evolution Theory in Science classes? Or am I over simplifying again?

*actually off for the night this time*

Ivy

what praytell is SAF? But yes on your question, they do. Their premise is is that evolution is only a theory, and as such holds no more right than creationism in a science class.

see you.
tommy (*)

[Urbanivy]

what praytell is SAF?

Students for Academic Freedom.
www.studentsforacademicfreedom.org

The 'About Us' section reads as follows:

The Students for Academic Freedom Information Center is a clearing house and communications center for a national coalition of student organizations whose goal is to end the political abuse of the university and to restore integrity to the academic mission as a disinterested persuit of knowledge. (emphasis mine)

So, I just want to reiterate before I go on, you read it right... the academic 'mission' should be the 'disinterested persuit of knowledge'. Passion? Bah! Out with you!

But wait! It gets stranger still...

The site asks of it's visitors:

Is Your Professor Using the Classroom as a Platform for Political Agendas?
Learn How To Place an Ad in Your College Newspaper
... there's a little link following, where we learn that,

"If you are not taking a course whose subject is the war in Iraq, your professor should not be making statements about the war in class. Or about George Bush, if the class is not on contemporary American Presidents, presidential administration or some similar subject.

"We do not expect our doctors to impose their political opinions on us when we go to them for treatment. We should likewise not be assulted by the political prejudices of professors when we pay them for an education.

"If your professor is abusing his or her teaching privilege or is confused about the professional obligations of an educator, please contact us." (again, emphasis mine)
This message is handily laid out in pdf. for easy printing.

See also, the K-12 version of the site, Parents & Students for Academic Freedom
www.psaf.org
You'll find articles there like, "How I Changed my Left Wing High School" detailing one students fight to have anti-war and anti-Bush propaganda removed from the school by the admin, to have new rules passed regarding the free speech of the teachers (no more slamming Bush on company time), etc.

... these sites refer to the American Association of University Professors as the Anti-Academic Freedom Campaign.

Their hero and champion is David Horowitz (see more on him above).

Hope this helps.
Ivy

[tommy]

Thanks IVY,

As I read all of your references, above

this quote came to mind....:

'First they came for the Communists, but I was not a Communist, so I said nothing. Then they came for the Social Democrats, but I was not a Social Democrat, so I did nothing. Then came the trade unionists, but I was not a trade unionist. And then they came for the Jews, but I was not a Jew, so I did little. *When they came for the homosexuals, I was not one, so I did nothing. Then when they came for me, there was no one left to stand up for me.' .














The quotation with a life of its own


Niemöller was a Protestant pastor, one of the pillars of moral resistance to the Nazis, who imprisoned him for four years in solitary confinement.


Everbody loves to quote Martin Niemöller’s lines about moral failure in the face of the Holocaust:

In 1931 Niemöller became a pastor in Dahlem, a fashionable suburb of Berlin. Two years later, as a protest against interference in church affairs by the National Socialists (Nazi Party), Niemöller founded the Pastors' Emergency League. The group, among its other activities, helped combat rising discrimination against Christians of Jewish background.

Niemöller was influential in building opposition to Adolf Hitler's efforts to bring the German churches under control of the Nazis and in 1937 was arrested by the Gestapo. Eventually sent to Sachsenhausen and then to Dachau concentration camps, he was moved in 1945 to the Tirol, where Allied forces freed him at the end of World War II.

http://www.liv-coll.ac.uk/pa09/europetrip/brussels/neimoller.htm

*homosexual added later, not in original...tommy

(*)

[Urbanivy]

'First they came for the Communists, but I was not a Communist, so I said nothing. Then they came for the Social Democrats, but I was not a Social Democrat, so I did nothing. Then came the trade unionists, but I was not a trade unionist. And then they came for the Jews, but I was not a Jew, so I did little. *When they came for the homosexuals, I was not one, so I did nothing. Then when they came for me, there was no one left to stand up for me.'

tommy,

(y)

Ivy

[tommy]

But you'd stand up for me, wouldn't you IVY? LOL.

tommy

[Urbanivy]

But you'd stand up for me, wouldn't you IVY? LOL.


You know it, tommy. You just let me know when you see the cavalry coming and I'm there.

Unless, of course, there's a sit in... lol...

[tommy]

LOL.

tommy

[caroline_8]

Caroline: You're very welcome. (f) How did the class go?

Ivy,

Ah, they could care less! I was so incredibly disappointed! You'd think they'd at least feign interest. Maybe next semester I'll get a more interested bunch.

There is always the cattle prod!
:D Caroline

[Urbanivy]

There is always the cattle prod!
:D

LOL!

I'm sorry to hear that your class didn't take to the subject. But they still sound like a wicked group of kids. Again, they're very lucky to have you. (f)

*off to find your students... cattle prod at the ready*

Ivy

[tommy]

LOL!

I'm sorry to hear that your class didn't take to the subject. But they still sound like a wicked group of kids. Again, they're very lucky to have you. (f)

*off to find your students... cattle prod at the ready*

Ivy


Ivy,

Hey.

I'm wiped I posted 3 new threads on another site, last night. And I've been in dialogs all day.

tommy (*)