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GrrlWonder
01-03-2004, 01:09 PM
Are there any butches that consider themselves both butch and tranny? My butch does, I want to be a really good GF to my boi, and wanted to hear more from members who can relate to this identity. Sometimes s/he is very butch, and other times, feels genderless or tranny. It is also a sensitive subject.

Much love and respect to you!

TmanSpenc
01-08-2004, 08:17 AM
I consider myself a butch FTM. My butchness is in my attitude and the way I carry myself. I will probably never give up my butch ID.

I never feel genderless... my gender is FTM. My butchness is always there. To me, gender identity and attitude are not mutually inclusive, nor are they mutually exclusive.

It's all the the way you see yourself and how you feel comfortable.

Tman

Tryke
01-08-2004, 08:50 AM
Below are links to threads on this topic... you will find that there are many different ways to ID as Butch and/or Transgender.

Our place in the world:
http://www.butch-femme.com/portal/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1067

Transgender vs Transsexual:
http://www.butch-femme.com/portal/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4089

what's up with this??:
http://www.butch-femme.com/portal/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=468

Hope you find these helpful...

(f)

love & peace,
Pat

:[

teejay
01-23-2004, 07:17 PM
I definitely identify as both butch and TG. Never woman/never lesbian/not transexual. Maybe that is what is being called queer,I have no idea anymore there are sooooooo many labels!
Interesting position however and loving every minute of it..

GrrlWonder
01-24-2004, 09:20 AM
Tranny butches are a sexy minority in my opinion. It takes a strong femme to really know how to nurture and understand her partner's needs. I think it takes courage to ID as such.

Thanks for all your thoughts.

FreakOnALeash73
02-08-2004, 05:17 AM
this is a very interesting thread, as I am dealing with right now the inability to identify who I am as a person. Is there a particular thread I could check out to get some advice.


Ive lived my life as a lesbian for so many years, and to be honest it has been just as if I was still pretending to be straight, I feel like Im trapped in a world to which I dont belong. But I dont know the first thing about being transgendered...I call myself gender confused. Only because of my outward appearance. I feel from the inside I am a man.....



Does anyone have any advice, or some references that I could research my feelings on?

GrrlWonder
02-29-2004, 01:06 PM
My partner and I were discussing the Middle Sex theory.
Non-T taking 'trans' people are plentiful these days.
Those butches that feel very masculine,
yet don't want to "physically" transistion, will still ID as trans.

This label can still be trans we think.

FreakOnaleash: maybe you are Gender Confused -- b/c you may feel alone with your questions. My partner accepted the "middle of the road" trans-issue, and doesn't box into the extreme labels.

sharkchomp
03-19-2004, 12:13 AM
FreakOnALeash73
Being physically a woman and feeling internally like a man can be very confusing. This feeling is called being transgendered. I didn't know there was a term for it until last year. Some people who feel this way will transition physically. Meaning some will take testosterone shots, possibly have their breasts removed and some will even have bottom surgery.

All people are differant. Some will go all the way in their transition and some won't. Usually people who transition are called FTM's (female to males).

Personally I have always felt like a guy inside - since I was a little kid. When I was very young I wanted to transition but as I got older I changed my mind. I accepted and came to peace with my female body.

If you have any questions feel free to ask. You can post here or pm me. There are also some great mailing lists here where you can freely discuss your problems.

Good luck
~~~shark~~~~~~~~~~

strongsilenttype
03-23-2004, 01:17 PM
Originally posted by GrrlWonder
Are there any butches that consider themselves both butch and tranny? My butch does, I want to be a really good GF to my boi, and wanted to hear more from members who can relate to this identity. Sometimes s/he is very butch, and other times, feels genderless or tranny. It is also a sensitive subject.

Much love and respect to you!

Hello GrrlWonder. I am butch and transgendered. Yes it IS a very sensitive subject. I, personally, have come across much BS because of who I am. I don't need to put any label on me. I've always just been me being me. It's a sensitive subject for me because I don't fit in the straight world, nor the lesbian world. Having tried for more years then I care to count- yes- sensitive indeed.


A suggestion:

1) Be a really good GF by allowing hym to be very butch and letting hym notice you noticing, when you notice that happening. (Use your imagination for your particular situation at that time)

2) When s/he feels genderless or tranny- just love hym and let hym know how much you love hym for the person s/he is.

I won't talk in a generalized term- only for myself. Who I am at my core- the real me- the me who loves and makes love to my partner.... this peson is sensitive, tender, needs reasurrance from the one I'm in love with that I'm o.k. in her eyes. The rest of the world only sees the opposite.

...but that's just me.

It's a tough world out there. We all survive in the best way that works for us. I know I'm not the only one who's a guarded TG Butch who's true self is sensitive. I don't open up to people. I see others of my kind at this place- so I'll open more.

BCtboi
04-02-2004, 11:11 AM
personally, i don't id as butch, but i believe that transmen can be both trans and butch.

BC

Left-Coast Virago
04-02-2004, 12:15 PM
Okies this is a tough one......hmm lemme see if I can elaborate clearly. Okay I most definately am a butch, have been since I was the bully in grade school beating up the tought "bio-boys" to make my niche in the playground, and 20 or so years later nothing has changed. Now, I knew every since I walked into my first lesbian bar that I simply didn't belong, and yet in a straight bar I felt the same. Yet, there was a huge sense of camraderie I detected when in the straight bars with the men who were present, yet at that time I detested males in general. I continued going to the lesbian bars knowing that this was the closest thing to "family" I would find. Anyhow, how does this tie in.......well in those lesbian bars I found I most definately was not a woman who loved women. I was infact as male as I could have possibly gotten. So FTM yeah in some reguard I am......but considering that many around me can't quite grasp the whole concept, I simplify it to a level they can understand without losing the meaning of who I truly am.
My partner has given me the third degree to help me really become aware of who I am, what I am, and where I fit, and mind you some things I still can't formulate the verbage for but in time that too shall come. But one thing i do know is a am a butch FTM/Male Identified Lesbian

femmeextreme
04-02-2004, 12:34 PM
ooooh, this is still really confusing, I have no probs at all with anyones id, sexual orientation, it is a facinating subject, but I can,t get my head round the fact that, if you tg, from FTM, how can you be butch, as this usually describes a female who is , welL, masculine looking, but certainly a woman. I love butch women, but you have to be able to tell they are female, (think this is my exibitionistic streak,) :s

Left-Coast Virago
04-08-2004, 11:56 AM
femmeextreme....might I ask if you have ever heard the term "butch" applied to gay males either? often times it is, showing that the term "butch" is not solely a lesbian term....just thought I would add my $.02

gentle_butch_4_u
04-12-2004, 03:06 AM
I stumbled upon this thread because it seemed very appropriate to the feelings I have been having lately. I was actually just discussing this issue with a friend the other day about how I know I don't fit into straight bars, and feel very out of place, yet at the same time, even in gay bars I feel very out of place, like I don't belong there either. Most butches my age are referred to more as "bois" and I don't see myself amongst these people at all, yet I don't see myself as a "butch lesbian" either. I don't seem to have the same personality and commonality that lesbians (at least the lesbians in the places i've been SO far) seem to have. It seems as though everything that interests me, everything I enjoy, the way I perceive the world, and even down to the way I enjoy being intimate with my partner is not the "norm" amongst "lesbian" women. Even with the butch "lesbians" I've ran across, some of my actions and behaviors, they can't seem to get their minds around, and I find myself having to explain myself and my frame of mind to even butch lesbian women who can't seem to understand where I'm coming from. This is why I say I don't feel as though I fit in with the lesbian community either. I still seem like the oddball. It IS a very sensitive issue and people, (especially referring to members of the lesbian community) can't seem to understand WHY I am so touchy or seem so aggravated all the time with society. Because it feels as though I can't find my "place" or find even ANYONE who can relate and understand the innerworkings of my brain.
It seems like MOST (although not all) lesbian women can't understand how I CANNOT be happy with my female body, and why I am so annoyed when society can still see me as female. I feel like I'm stuck in this weird lesbian twilight zone somewhere, where I know society can see me as female ( I have the feminine wide hips, and a very high pitched female voice) although just to see me, I get mistaken for "sir" a lot or a young teenage boy. It seems like straight men I seem to get along best as friends with, becuase they are the closest people who can understand how I view relationships. Is that strange?
So, I don't know if all this makes me transgendered or not. I know I don't FEEL female in MY mind, although I can still face the reality that I am, although that doesn't mean I'm HAPPY with that realization. I'd love more than ANYTHING to not have breasts, or menstrual cycles, or these god awful "girlish" hips and butt I have. Would I go as far as transitioning ALL the way? No, probably not, because the surgeries, quite honestly scare me, and so does the Testosterone. Medical science hasn't perfected everything in the FTM side of sexual reassignment for my liking just yet.
I apologize for just going on and on in a kind of unorganized ramble in this post, but these thoughts and everything that I've been keeping hidden inside my brain are not very organized either and it's hard to put everything that's been kind of floating around in my brain in an organized process on paper (or on a screen for that matter) I am glad I found this post though, and to see that I'm not alone in these thoughts and feelings.

bit
04-12-2004, 03:34 AM
Pat posted some links to threads which will probably help you figure out where you fit in and why you feel the way you do. I quoted hys post for you, so that you can check the threads out.
Originally posted by Tryke
Below are links to threads on this topic... you will find that there are many different ways to ID as Butch and/or Transgender.

Our place in the world:
http://www.butch-femme.com/portal/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1067

Transgender vs Transsexual:
http://www.butch-femme.com/portal/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4089

what's up with this??:
http://www.butch-femme.com/portal/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=468

Hope you find these helpful...

(f)

love & peace,
Pat

:[

gentle_butch_4_u
04-12-2004, 03:41 AM
Thanks bit. I have actually looked at those sites. I am still confused about one thing though. If you see yourself as male on the inside, but don't wish to have actually undergo the surgery, however you wish to not have breasts and would like more than anything to get rid of your INTERNAL female organs, would that make you transgendered or "no op" FTM? I mean can you be FTM and NOT have surgery, but have the desire to still?
See for me, I'd LOVE to not have breasts and to have a hysterectomy to get rid of my internal female organs, however, it's not something I can see myself actually DOING. Surgery frightens me quite honestly, and I'm not the kind of person who will follow doctor's orders and "take it easy" after surgery. I constantly have to be moving and doing something, so for me, laying in a bed "recovering" is just not gonna happen.
So, if you don't actually undergo surgery, but still in your mind would LIKE to, does that make you transgendered or FTM with no op? Just curious, any input?

bit
04-12-2004, 04:13 AM
What makes a guy a Female to Male Transsexual is that he knows he is a man, even though his body is genetically female. If this is what you know about yourself, then I would say yes, that makes you a non-op FTM.

On the other hand, there are Transgendered Butches who know that they are male inside even though they are not men, and some of them also want the same kinds of surgeries. I haven't sen anyone call himself a non-op TG Butch, but I certainly have seen plenty of TG Butches talk about how much they *want* to have surgery, so who knows? It very well may be that there are a significant number!

You do need to know, gentle, that my opinions on gender are often minority opinions. <wry grin>

gentle_butch_4_u
04-12-2004, 04:25 AM
Oh, that's ok bit, a lot of my opinions on EVERYTHING is a minority opinion, and I get a lot of hostile reponses in these forums for having my own opinion, which often times, IS against the "norm" or the "majority".
I seem to have trouble grasping the concept of IDing as FTM however. I think mostly because the idea of transitioning bothers me so much, and from some of the posts and things I read about TRUE FTM's is that most have no question in their mind about going through with the actual transition.
As far as transgenderism goes though, sometimes even that bothers me, becuase a lot of people can still see me as female. For one, I have a feminine name, that I really am not thrilled with, but I was named after my grandmother who has passed away, so it's staying. I've also asked one of my more open minded friends about how she viewed me, and she says definitely in APPERANCE I could easily pass, however in my personality, she would view me as more of a gay man! I guess I still have a small feminine side to some of my mannerisms, and I don't see myself as "hardcore" butch, so the masculine side of me isn't OVERLY strong. However as far as sexual practices go, I would be more of the "stone" variety. When this is discussed among my so called "butch" friends, they can't seem to grasp the concept of why I would do that. They don't seem to understand that that is what makes me happy and that is how I SEE me. I dunno, I'm just very confused about a lot of things at the moment.

tMax1977
04-12-2004, 09:06 AM
there are several ways of "being" trans..there is no right or wrong way, no right or wrong body. it's an identity, just like butch and femme. take it as what it means to you.

i could be wrong in saying this, but i am going to put it out there. i am an ftm who just started identifying as butch. and to me, the butch comes more out of my past as a female. I look more like a femme male than a butch female. I have a lot of facial hair and pass as male most of the time. I didn't really think i had a place on butch-femme.com, because i pass as male and a lot of the trans-butches here are pre-hormone, pre-surgery. i've been talking to people on here on and off and they all seem extremely supportive, but i wonder what will happen when i show up at a butch-femme event passing as a male? I never felt part of any community and as trans, i definitely am having a hard time meeting people. i am also single, so i wonder where i go to meet people who are accepting. I am generally attracted to femme women, but not really into being with a hetero woman because my body is still female in certain ways. AHHH...the saga of the transman...i guess i'll stop ranting..maybe you all can add something...am i the only hairy passing butch tranny on here who does not deny their female butch past and wants to hold on to it even if i have a beard?

femmeextreme
04-12-2004, 09:26 AM
I don,t see why you should noy fit in on this site, it,s so diverse, nothing wrong with the way you ID. nice to meet you.

buccaneer2
04-12-2004, 09:58 AM
gentle_butch_4_u and tMax1977: am grateful for how you guys shared about yourselves and to add my .02, please keep reading and posting. It's what makes this place worth coming back to--to know that no matter how alone or different or strange you feel, there is probably someone here who can relate and maybe, just maybe, make your journey a little easier with a few words of support and understanding.

I have come across a few souls like that on this site (inevitably, almost cosmically, on the days when my self-esteem is dragging and my confusion raging at its worst) and it keeps me coming back for more insight and comfort.
Hope you stick around,

Buc

SirDylan
04-12-2004, 10:59 AM
I would have to agree with alot of the guys on this thread in the ideal that "butch" is an attitude, the way one carries themselves.

I consider myself a FTM, even though I am unable to go through "Physical" transition due to medical reasons. Does that make me less of a man?....no, Am I transgendered?.....yes, Am I Butch?....Hell Yeah!

As I have voiced in other threads, one's anatomy does not in whole make up one's gender and the spectrum between male and female is wide.

As Popeye so deftly stated......."I Am What I Am!"

Dylan

gentle_butch_4_u
04-12-2004, 01:47 PM
gentle_butch_4_u and tMax1977: am grateful for how you guys shared about yourselves and to add my .02, please keep reading and posting. It's what makes this place worth coming back to--to know that no matter how alone or different or strange you feel, there is probably someone here who can relate and maybe, just maybe, make your journey a little easier with a few words of support and understanding.

I have come across a few souls like that on this site (inevitably, almost cosmically, on the days when my self-esteem is dragging and my confusion raging at its worst) and it keeps me coming back for more insight and comfort.
Hope you stick around,

Buc

Thank you Buc, it makes me feel a lot better knowing I can help in some small way. When you think the world has turned it's back on you, more than likely you've turned your back on the world. For this reason, I hold strong to the belief of a quote I heard once. "Be the change you want to see in the world." And that's what I try to do, and I think about that every day of my life. I'm glad you enjoy my posts. I think I'll stick around *wink*

bit
04-13-2004, 12:17 AM
Originally posted by gentle_butch_4_u
I seem to have trouble grasping the concept of IDing as FTM however. I think mostly because the idea of transitioning bothers me so much, and from some of the posts and things I read about TRUE FTM's is that most have no question in their mind about going through with the actual transition. gentle_butch, you couldn't be more wrong here!! Honest, the guys who transition (please don't call them "true" because that makes guys in your position feel like they must be fake or something, when really they're just searching) have searched, questioned, stumbled, questioned, searched, fallen, searched, wandered, searched, questioned, questioned, questioned... I don't think ANY guy comes to the decision about transitioning without a lot of heartache and self-examination. You're reading posts from guys who have already been down the path before you, and you're not seeing just how long and torturous that path was for them.

The reason I personally believe that it isn't good for school age kids to transition medically is that they believe with all their hearts they are transsexual, but they grow up in straight households, so who takes the time to educate them about being transgendered? How can they know what they really are, if all they've seen is the binary model, "boy/girl?" Who has taken the time to explain to the eleven year old that I read about last summer that he may very well be a Transgendered Butch, and that he may very well be supposed to have a male soul and a female body? I think the searching is an important part of finding an identity, and a vital part of making the decision to transition.

*waving hello to everyone!*

Max, I believe you would most likely be received the same way at any B-F.com event the same way all the other guys have been. People might be hesitant until they understand who you are-- but if you've made friends here on the forums or in chat, you'll fit right in.

That is, of course, how it is for all the butches and femmes, too. Everybody's nervous at first. <smiling>

gentle_butch_4_u
04-19-2004, 01:14 PM
Bit, I do understand what you're saying, trust me I do. It's just some of the other FtM and transgendered butches that I've had the opportunity of talking to seem to have a feeling that they just KNEW very early on in their lives that they were supposed to be male. I don't think that was the case with me. At least as a kid, I never really thought about it as a kid. NOW however, looking back, I can see where the feelings I have now, kind of started surfacing as a kid. And yes, I do know what it's like to ponder and research, and stumble, and chicken out, and ponder again and again and again. I had thought I had built up the courage to go to the counselor and do the whole "therapy" thing before deciding to transition and all that, but for me, even telling this strange woman that I think I may have a "gender dysphoria" over the phone was hard for me. I chickened out of the session. :( I don't know, maybe I'm just not ready for all this just yet. However, the more time I spend in the straight community, I know it's not me, and the more time I spend in the lesbian community, I know it's not my "scene" either. The issue of transgenderism keeps resurfacing in my mind over and over and over again. I try to push it back into my subconcious, but it keeps coming back. So, yes, I do know what you're saying.

strongsilenttype
04-20-2004, 06:00 AM
Gentle- it's strange to be talking about this side of myself to people, but since it has helped me in feeling more whole reading other TGs posts at this site- I'd like to add too.

I can relate to some of your struggles. I'm very proficient at being the loner I am because I've never fit. Unlike you- I've always felt male inside- and that never changed. Elementary school years, it just was- I never judged it. I isolated instead. Jr. High years I was painfully aware of my differences- and it's been a journey to self acceptance ever since. Late 20s brought up the therapy years. I had tried coming out as a lesbian and I wasn't accepted there. I knew I wasn't a straight woman and like yourself- I couldn't face the gender identity disorder label therapists wanted to throw at me. I lied to therapists when it was brought up, insisting I felt female inside. In fact- I very much knew I wasn't. Always being "sirred" in public, mistaken for a guy- it all would leave me in a literal state of panic.

During my 30s- alot of things happened to me, and I also stopped fighting my true self. I went through a period of hating the lesbian community that wouldn't accept me no matter how hard I tried to soften up my personality- they never saw me as a woman. (no shit!- I finallty accepted the clue they threw at me. LOL) I came to embrace the masculine me. I fell in love with a woman who wanted the unique combination I was. I'm comfortable with thinking of myself as more "third gendered" rather then a man. I still get sirred in public but my acceptance of myself has stopped the panic attacks. My partner calls me her "gentle butch". I have a very quiet, gentle way about me- but Butch through and through. Butch- yes, woman no, man- edge toward, lesbian- whatever, third gendered all the way.

My own self discouveries and self acceptance has simmered the anger I have toward society and their need to catagorize everyone and if you don't fit neatly into their norm you are hated for it. Now I can look at them with better understanding at their inability to see beyond what their own narrowminded views on what is accaptable and what is to be scorned.

I will always learn and discouver more about myself. I find it fun and fasinating these days. Partner and I were in Sears yesterday. I was looking for new shoes to wear to a taping of the Ellen show next week. Being in the men's department wearing mens attire looking at men's shoes- no wonder the saleslady walked up to me while I was browsing asking- "can I help you sir". Partner was watching the whole scene happen and we had a good laugh afterward. I heard the sir comment and with my own still struggling some self after all these year, chose subconsciosly to ignore the whole scenereo. At first I ignored it. I was thinking- I'm just innocently shopping for shoes- I don't want to embarresse the poor lady just doing her job. She asked again if I needed any help so I finally had to acknowledge her.

O.K. I'll stop talking now. LOL. Just thought I'd share a little of my world.

Everything happens in it's own time and when you are ready to accept it.

buzzie
04-21-2004, 01:44 PM
hey guys... just sitting here reading all the posts and finding them interesting and helpful... i am not a young kid, but find myself in a state of confusion about my identity and just who the hell i am. i have been part of the lesbian community since i was 24, after being married to a male for 4 years (was in a zombie state of mind!)...this was many years ago..well, anyway, i have always been attracted to femme women, but never really thought too much about it until about 3 years ago... i went to pick up a woman whom i had been dating and when i walked in i told her how beautiful i thought she looked... she turned and said...."and YOU look very handsome"... wellllllllllll- fireworks! sparks! bands playing!!!!! I LOVED IT!!!! that was my first clue... my last gf was very much a femme, and we talked a lot about my butchness-how she liked my hair real short, my legs unshaved... i went on T, but the cream, not injections... but somehow i couldn't move past a certain point...well, she left me several months ago for an ftm... and is now part of that community... my friends are all lesbians, but not into the butch-femme scene, nor anything like transgendered folk... i went to the b/f society dance last weekend in nyc and bought and wore a guys suit for the first time, and i LOVED THE FEELING! my ex was there and it was tough, realizing that i was persona non grata... but that's not the point... the point is that i am so confused now.. i feel alone, i want to explore this newfound part of me... i feel like a 19 year old boy who is just about to come into his own... i am boi identified, but what does all this mean? i was in florida several weeks ago and a woman came up to me on the street in palm beach and said.. excuse me, sir.. what time is it? without missing a beat, i said.. 2 o clock!!! i dont' know what to do with this stuff.. dont' want to go to therapy- do we need labels? am i tg? i know i feel butch and love that side of me... i'm just confused at mid life... can you believe it??? buzz

bit
04-21-2004, 10:58 PM
{{{{{{{{{{{{{{guys}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Buzz, lol, I feel for ya! I was 39 the first time I heard the word "femme"-- the light went on for me then!! And I thought I had it allll figured out... but two years ago I discovered there was more to me than I thought. Wasn't THAT a rollercoaster ride!

I think the first thing to know at midlife is that you are butch. That's the baseline. If you have in the past used the T cream, and if you have in the past stopped at a certain comfort level, then I would say you're third gender butch, or transgender butch.

You're the only one who can look inside yourself and say whether you are a man. You're the only one who can say whether you need to change your legal identity, social security card, driver's license, etc, to say "M" and that, I find, is one of the things that really differentiates FTM transsexuals from transgender butches-- that driving need to be a man in all ways, including legally.

A lot of TG Butches need to have a male body, and they take T or have surgery without ever needing to be legally a man. The TG Butches who walk the edges between male and female are fantastic guys but hard to find, and if that's who you are, Buzzie, then there is going to be one ecstatic femme in your life when you're ready for a relationship. There doesn't seem to be a readily identifiable "category" of femmes that matches up with TG Butches, but you can look for a Stonefemme, a Queer femme, a Transensual femme... I bet you'll find someone without much trouble!

And hey, that goes for the rest of you TG Butches, too! lol

femmeextreme
04-22-2004, 10:58 AM
Buzzie, hi, hope you are still enjoying the posts. I am a femme , of this I have no doubt, it must be very hard for you at the moment, but I,m sure you find lots of help and support on this site, good luck to you , be happy whatever happens in your life.(x)

gentle_butch_4_u
04-24-2004, 08:02 AM
buzz, I really enjoyed reading your post. It really expressed how I feel a lot of the time toward the general society myself. I too was very much the loner and angered at the narrowmindedness of society and their mentality of trying to tell me HOW I am, HOW I feel, WHAT I like and what I DON'T like. That really bothered me, and to that, I would just respond, "oh, really? is that so? hmm, interesting, I'VE only had to live with me for 24 years, but PLEASE enlighten ME as to how I am, since apparently YOU know me so well."
Also, when you said you knew as a kid you should have been male, I know I said I don't think I felt that way, but after reading your post, it expressed very well how I felt as a young kid. I isolated too. I was the kid who sat in the hallway during lunch at school reading a book, because I knew no matter how hard I tried, I didn't "fit" with everybody else. The guys still saw me a "girl" no matter how much I tried not to be, and the girls were all scared or intimidated by me or SOMETHING, and I just couldn't get into their frame of mind or understand where their point of view was coming from. So I isolated. I read, and I studied and I became a bookworm/geek.
The strange thing is, is unlike a lot of you guys, I DON'T get called sir very often. A lot of people can still see me as female. I am very short, broad hips like a woman, and a very feminine voice. However, I have the masculine "walk" , I have the masculine style of dress, and like I tell everyone, I'm just "male brained" and most people figure that out very quickly upon conversating with me. I'd love more than anything to be called sir . The few times it DOES happen, I just beam with happiness.
I guess I'm just frustrated because everyone ELSE can't see me as I see me, and when I TRY to have the whole transgender discussion amongst my so called "friends" they just give me this look like I'm insane. Everyone sees me as the "gentle butch" and they don't see me as a "man" because I have that "gentleness" about my nature. I'm not insensitive, cold, uncaring, or rude. I don't sit out in my front yard in a lawn chair, and a wife beater, drinking a beer and cleaning my shotgun, you know? lol...sorry, baaaad stereotype I know, but you get the point. And it seems amongst my narrowminded "friends" that that's the kind of image you have to put out there to be considered "male", and that's not me. I'm the "sweet/gentlemanly" type. I open doors, pay for dates, validate what the person is saying, act genuinely interested in what they have to say, but I also give a very "neutral" perspective/advice on what I hear. Unfortuneately, to a lot of people, they don't like that either. They say I "analyze" them or I "attack" them, when in reality, that's not the case at all, I'm just giving an unbiased observation, and I speak the truth. Because I don't tell people what they WANT to hear, rather I tell them what they SHOULD hear, they get upset with me, and think I'm "superior" over them, or that I "talk down to them. I don't know what else to do... I mean should I act like I'm NOT an educated person? Should I lower my standards? I don't think I should. I mean for example, I used the word "oblivious" to my roommate yesterday, and she was like, "see, that right there, you make me feel stupid" to which I responded, "the only person that can MAKE you feel stupid is yourself" "you're actually not mad at ME, you're mad at YOURSELF for knowing that you don't know what i'm talking about"
And it's things like this that get people mad at me. That I can sit and have discussions like that, where people perceive me to be a bitch, when all I'm trying to do is get a point across, and I do so in a CALM manner, unlike my so called "friends" that have to over dramatize every possible situation and reaction to everything. This is why I sometimes just want to voluntarily ostracize myself OUT of the gay community, or at least out of my circle of "friends". And it seems though, that no matter WHERE I go, or WHO I associate with, I run into this problem, unless I talk to people on the same wavelength as myself, or very open minded people, which makes me wonder, is the problem with everyone ELSE, or is it with ME?

femmeextreme
04-24-2004, 01:56 PM
Gentle, you sound like a nice PERSON to me, don,t lower your standards for anyone, let them raise thiers for you, you deserve it.

bit
04-25-2004, 12:38 AM
gentle, when people percieved as female respond in typically male ways, they often get accused of bitchiness and superiority. Maybe what you might do is find a way to give less of a response at first, maybe go heavy on the sympathy or compassion or whatever 's called for, and take it easy on the analysis... and maybe look more to men for friendship, so that your circle of friends is broader. Sometimes butches say they have an easier time being friends with straight men than with other females-- maybe that will happen for you, too.

Tryke
04-26-2004, 08:58 AM
Responding to post to 4/22


Shark said,


I accepted and came to peace with my female body.

Exactly! Accepting and becoming at peace within one's self is an important place for us to find as differently gendered people, and like you said, for each one of us it is a different experience. To this I can only add that the journey to finding this place both within and on the outside, can be one of the most rewarding personal experiences a human being can have.




strongsilenttype said,


It's a sensitive subject for me because I don't fit in the straight world, nor the lesbian world.

It's a tough world out there. We all survive in the best way that works for us. I know I'm not the only one who's a guarded TG Butch who's true self is sensitive. I don't open up to people. I see others of my kind at this place- so I'll open more.

There are times when I too feel so very much alone in the world, and this can be quite overwhelming. It is no wonder that it can be so hard for us to open up to others. While having an understanding significant other helps an awful lot, finding community goes a long way toward getting us there.



Left-Coast Virgo said,


My partner has given me the third degree to help me really become aware of who I am, what I am, and where I fit, and mind you some things I still can't formulate the verbage for but in time that too shall come. But one thing i do know is a am a butch FTM/Male Identified Lesbian

Language... we really do need our own language for some of this... English as with most other literate languages, are based on a sex/gender binary, making discussions of “Third Gender Issues” very difficult. On the bright side though, it has been less than two decades since the term “Transgender” was coined and today it is on Microsoft XP's spell/check.



gentle_butch said,


lesbian twilight zone....

Cathepillar said,


You do need to know, gentle, that my opinions on gender are often minority opinions. <wry grin>

gentle_butch, you couldn't be more wrong here!! Honest, the guys who transition (please don't call them "true" because that makes guys in your position feel like they must be fake or something, when really they're just searching) have searched, questioned, stumbled, questioned, searched, fallen, searched, wandered, searched, questioned, questioned, questioned... I don't think ANY guy comes to the decision about transitioning without a lot of heartache and self-examination. You're reading posts from guys who have already been down the path before you, and you're not seeing just how long and torturous that path was for them.

The reason I personally believe that it isn't good for school age kids to transition medically is that they believe with all their hearts they are transsexual, but they grow up in straight households, so who takes the time to educate them about being transgendered? How can they know what they really are, if all they've seen is the binary model, "boy/girl?" Who has taken the time to explain to the eleven year old that I read about last summer that he may very well be a Transgendered Butch, and that he may very well be supposed to have a male soul and a female body? I think the searching is an important part of finding an identity, and a vital part of making the decision to transition.

Buzz, lol, I feel for ya! I was 39 the first time I heard the word "femme"-- the light went on for me then!! And I thought I had it allll figured out... but two years ago I discovered there was more to me than I thought. Wasn't THAT a rollercoaster ride!

A lot of TG Butches need to have a male body, and they take T or have surgery without ever needing to be legally a man. The TG Butches who walk the edges between male and female are fantastic guys but hard to find, and if that's who you are, Buzzie, then there is going to be one ecstatic femme in your life when you're ready for a relationship.


Gentle, your post was intense and while I am different from you in many ways, I felt a strong kinship with you in what you were expressing. There are non-op FTM's, as there are also TG Butches who have done as much to masculinize their bodies, as many FTM's ever do. Your social comfort with biological males and feelings of alienation in “Lesbian Culture” indicate a strong male identity. I fully understand your concerns about Gender Reassignment procedures and FTM Hormone Replacement Therapy. However, going in to discuss your gender identity issues with a professional doesn't automatically mean he/she is going to recommend transition. Instead you could just come out of those with a better understanding of your gender identity and yourself as a person, and this is always a good thing.

Cath, your opinions on gender are valued highly by those of us who have open minds. I doubt there are many women outside of the Soffa's and Transensual Femmes who have an inkling about our struggles as non-biological male “guys”. You and femmeheart are among the most empathetic and knowledgeable, truly gifts from the Goddess Herself to make our journeys more bearable. You also know better than most, what I went through as fourteen year old on T'. Thank you so much darlin'. (f)




buzzie said,


i went to pick up a woman whom i had been dating and when i walked in i told her how beautiful i thought she looked... she turned and said...."and YOU look very handsome"... wellllllllllll- fireworks! sparks! bands playing!!!!! I LOVED IT!!!! that was my first clue... i feel like a 19 year old boy who is just about to come into his own... i dont' know what to do with this stuff.. dont' want to go to therapy- do we need labels? am i tg? i know i feel butch and love that side of me... i'm just confused at mid life... can you believe it??? buzz

buc said,


It's what makes this place worth coming back to--to know that no matter how alone or different or strange you feel, there is probably someone here who can relate and maybe, just maybe, make your journey a little easier with a few words of support and understanding.

Your words buzzie; “fireworks! Sparks! Bands playing!” I came to Butch-Femme feeling much the way you do now, and with the help of Cath, Berg, Toughy, JetBoy, Tranzman just to name a few, along with the help of the best therapists I have ever worked with, am now able to claim my Transgender Intersexed Identity.

Living in straight world and still feeling queer... accepting that you are “different” from about 90% of the population, only to realize years later that you could be even more “different”... then for a little icing on the cake at the age of 40, when many of us do that internal inventory thing like Cath said, re-accessing our lives in terms of our present can be quite the reality check.

Last night I went to an LGBT Semi-Formal Event with Ethereal... who is one of the loveliest Femmes from this site, and who looked to be the absolute vision of a “Femme Angel” come to earth, in her gown, etc... but I digress. When she saw me in a men's suit for the first time, she was like “Wow! I didn't know you could look so handsome!” Well I was flattered too no end, but more than that I felt validated in how I see myself, as a “Trans-Guy of a Different Stripe.” Also at the event, there were several people who hadn't see me in years, and to see how they reacted to the “me” of today, was a real measure of how much I had changed.



love & peace,
Pat

:[

gentle_butch_4_u
04-26-2004, 03:20 PM
I just wanted to respond to whoever said that my "analytical" nature and my way of responding to people indicates a strong male identity couldn't be more right. And also that it might be in my better interest to associate myself more with bio males as friends. This is true too. Actually, back in Illinois, before I moved here, most of my friends WERE male. Here though, (I moved to San Antonio to get back on my feet with one of my lesbian friends) most of my friends here, are HER friends as well, and most are lesbians as well, and they live IN the "lesbian culture" if you will, and this is what bothers me so much, and why I say I feel like I don't "fit in" with the "lesbians". I've noticed most of my friends are either very effiminate gay men ( now if they were BIO women, i'd date them, lol) or very butch/transgendered/FtM women, or bio men. Back in Illinois, I had VERY VERY few female friends. I take that back, I should say female friends with a FEMALE essence about them. Here however, I seem to run into a lot of so called "butch lesbians" with very feminine personalities. Is it just ME or is this a little odd? These so called "butch" lesbians tell me I'M femme! and I'm just like "what the hell"? These so called "butch" friends of mine are very dramatic, take things WAAAY out of proportion, concerned about fashion, shoes, gossip, obsessed about their house being spotless, can have a 2 hour conversation about absolutely nothing but babble, ect ect ect....I'm not saying these are FEMININE qualitities, but they aren't usually qualities you see in butch women, or am I wrong? Most butch women that i've had the PLEASURE of knowing, were very intelligent, mature, responsible, wise, strong, independent women. Has this changed without me knowing it? Like I tell my friends, I feel like I'm in some kind of weird lesbian twilight zone, because I don't associate myself with the "bois" (you know the young, baby dyke tomboy kind that are still "girly") and I don't quite fall into that "hardcore/stone butch" category either. I actually don't see myself ANYWHERE on the "lesbian spectrum" . I see myself fitting in more with bio guys. :s Like I've told my friends before, if I WERE a bio guy, you could compare me to someone like Robin Williams, that's what i'd be like :D Not really mean, or hardcore, but definitely not a female either!
Actually, at work, I've gotten called sir on an average of 5 times a day now, so I don't know what I've done different, but I'm glad it's working!

ainu
04-27-2004, 06:59 PM
I just want to jump in and add my 2 cents. I also identify as a TG Butch. I am Butch and I also consider myself trans. I have had surgery to make my chest less feminine and I have considered options to lower my voice. I do like to identify as a dyke still...so its a little mixed up for some...for me its home. One Femme friend of mine refers to Tranny Butches as "More than Butch" I dunno.
I feel caught in gender pergatory...

Ainu

Tryke
04-29-2004, 05:10 AM
gentle_butch, who you relate to for friends indicates a strong male identity as I said earlier. That you like to look like the average Joe (Robin Williams) first makes it easier for you to pass for male, and also speaks to how you perceive yourself from the inside. You may want to work this out with a gender counselor/therapist. I'm not saying that you are FTM, but it is something you might consider exploring.

Also, a while back my dear friend Ethereal started a controversial thread called “Trading in Butch for the butch look”. Short hair does not a butch make. Madison Avenue came up with a new marketing scheme last year called “Lesbian Sheik” and a great many straight women are cutting their hair short. So now Androgynous Lesbians are doing the same in droves, but it does not make them “butch.” There are loads of these here in Providence RI as well... but regardless of the packaging, they are still andro-dykes.




Ainu, while it may have been your Femme friends experience that the Butches she met who identify as “transgender” appeared to be and/or act more masculine than other butches she knows, this could simply be coincidence. Gender Identity Issues effect people who are masculine, androgynous and feminine. There are transgender faggy-bois, just as there are FTM's who are gay males. Though I would agree that transgender butches are more than just butch.

That said, I too live in that “gender purgatory” along with you. I was at a semi-formal LGBT event with Ethereal last Saturday night and there were quite a few transgender people there. Yet, she looked at me and said, “Even here you feel very much alone don't you.” She had not posed this as a question, because she knew my answer was yes.

love & peace,
Pat

:[

ainu
04-29-2004, 03:42 PM
Ainu, while it may have been your Femme friends experience that the Butches she met who identify as “transgender” appeared to be and/or act more masculine than other butches she knows, this could simply be coincidence. Gender Identity Issues effect people who are masculine, androgynous and feminine. There are transgender faggy-bois, just as there are FTM's who are gay males. Though I would agree that transgender butches are more than just butch.

I know what you are saying and the femme meant all trannys...even the faggy-boys...it is just semantics I think.

Of course isn't that half of it? The semantics I mean...so many words and none of them say exactly the right thing...its so hard to make our language say what we feel...what we are, but we do try.

Its nice that I exisit outside of the box...until I try to name it..lol

Peace,
Ainu

bit
04-30-2004, 02:40 AM
I can't name the box, Ainu, but I surely can name you, and Pat, and my guy, and all the other butches like you-- wonderful.
Rare.
Special.
Incredible.
Sexy.
To die for.
To live for.
To give my whole heart and soul for.

gentle_butch_4_u
04-30-2004, 11:17 AM
Wow, after reading these posts, I'd just like to know where all you wonderful, special, caring, loving, wise, open minded ladies who step out of the paradigm of the "lesbian labels" and can see people for who they really are? Where ARRREEEEE you???? and why can't I FIND you?????
You think if I walk around downtown with a sign that said, "will beg for open minded femmes" would work?? LOL, just kidding

Peace and Love,
gentle

Bo Dacious
04-30-2004, 11:36 AM
Originally posted by gentle_butch_4_u
Wow, after reading these posts, I'd just like to know where all you wonderful, special, caring, loving, wise, open minded ladies who step out of the paradigm of the "lesbian labels" and can see people for who they really are? Where ARRREEEEE you???? and why can't I FIND you?????
You think if I walk around downtown with a sign that said, "will beg for open minded femmes" would work?? LOL, just kidding

Peace and Love,
gentle

Hey bro....can you pick up one of those signs for me too !!!! :s

strongsilenttype
04-30-2004, 05:13 PM
"Lesbian Shiek". Ugh. Why does that make me shudder.

Granted- I have a sense of humor about it all... but to think of all those years voluntarily trying to destroy myself. Hell, there was a time when saying the L word was a shocking moment. Now I'm seeing attempts here and there at making a pride flag for us TG guys. I never thought I'd see even a phrase set up just to describe what I'm about. I've been in the closet about it for so long with being transgendered- I'm still not use to it all. Wonders never cease.

I was very lucky in finding my life mate who helped me accept my true self. Bit- you are few and far between and I'd like to add-special yourself. I've read your posts around here and I thank you for your obvious understanding. Women like yourself are rare.

Yes- I have witnessed the faux butch as well. Having had the pleasure of knowing Butches myself- it's puzzling to me too. They seem more like tough andro types- cool with me, to each their own- but the feelings of competition to try to outbutch the Butch is annoying to me and puts Butches in a bad light because I've noticed fauxbutches seem to wind up in trouble more then trying to be decent human beings..... but that's just my opinion.

I just sit back and observe because life is interesting to me.

bit
05-01-2004, 01:13 AM
{{{{{{{{{{{{{Guys}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}} we're out there, I promise! And i think it's no harder finding us, than it is for us to find you... or maybe I should say, "just as hard." I know it isn't easy.

StrongSilentType, thank you very much. It's very sweet of you to say such nice things about me.

"Lesbian Sheik" makes me think of Rudolph Valentino in a tent on a windy desert... he could only wish he had something to offer that would be as wonderful as butchcock, eh? ;)

Amethystluv
05-01-2004, 01:57 AM
gentle................come visit the great state of Maine. you will find many openminded femme women that love you guys that are Butch, TG and FtM................and even guys that do not know where to ID.ya see, not everyone wants a guy that fits in the lines.

i love Butches, TG Butches, StoneButches, and FtM's. i have gotten flack most of my life for loving very masculine (biofemales) and made fun of for calling them he/hy, him/hym. i guess, all in all, respect is the key phrase.

when you find someone and truly love them, you love and respect them for WHO they are.......for WHO they say they are irrespective of their bio body. i respect boundaries whether they be physical ( body) or emotional boundaries. THAT my dear gentle is the key

RESPECT...........so as the tourism bureau says here........

Maine , the way life ought to be...........lol. that is where we are.

love,~ame~(l)

(a)

bit
05-01-2004, 02:16 AM
Okay, Ame, we're not all in Maine (though I'd sure rather be there than here! ;) ), but you sure did hit the nail on the head about love and respect.

"when you find someone and truly love them, you love and respect them for WHO they are.......for WHO they say they are irrespective of their bio body."

I could not have said that better no matter how hard I tried. That is the whole thing in a nutshell! Thanks, sweetie. You're a .... oh my, I bet a lot of people have said this and you're probably tired of it :$ but I don't know a better way to put it-- you're a gem. :$ (a)

gentle_butch_4_u
05-01-2004, 02:14 PM
yes, Bit, i agree completely on the respect issue. I think that what separates my so called "butch" friends from me. They are rude, insensitive and very disrespectful and have somehow gotten the impression, (probably from society's views on how they see butch women) that you have to be all hardcore and an asshole to be a butch. I do not believe this to be the case at all. I am a very respectful person, my father was in the military for 22 years, and I myself joined the military. I was raised on proper manners and respect. A lot of my friends think I'm unable to stand up for myself or that I'm weak, but anyone who knows me will know I will definitely stand up for myself, because I'm not a doormat, yet I believe very much in proper manners and respect.
Right now, we have another "boi" living with us with 3 kids. And it bothers her a LOT as to how I talk to her kids, BUT.... when they are around ME at least, they WILL learn how to say "may I please have" instead of "i want" and how to say "excuse me" instead of "move" and how to answer an adult with "yes maam" or 'yes sir" she says "well, I don't insist my kids say yes maam or yes sir, but they do need to learn how to answer adults". Which i guess I could compromise on, but it bothers me a lot as to how some parents let their children behave, and then tell me I'M wrong for trying to teach them right from wrong.
But I digress, I mean, this is the kind of person I am. My roomies seem to think I'm a middle class stuck up bitch, which isn't true, I just don't deal well, and have no tolerance for disrespectful people. It's just like when this new "boi" moved in, she seemed to get it in her head somehow that the second bedroom would be hers, just because she has 3 kids, and I told her that she knew I was here before she moved down, she knew it was a 2 bedroom apartment, I've paid MY portion of the rent this month, it's MY room, and her 3 kids sounds like a personal problem. The reason she wanted the bedroom is because she found herself a new woman and wants to be able to have her over, and doesn 't see why it's such a big deal that I don't have my room because I'm single. Like that has anything to do with it!
I'm just really tired of dealing with people like this, please tell me sane, wise, mature, and open minded people DO exist still?

strongsilenttype
05-01-2004, 07:21 PM
Originally posted by bit
StrongSilentType, thank you very much. It's very sweet of you to say such nice things about me.

"Lesbian Sheik" makes me think of Rudolph Valentino in a tent on a windy desert... he could only wish he had something to offer that would be as wonderful as butchcock, eh? ;) [/B]

Bit-
Woof! (h) He just wouldn't GET the rhythm.

Gentle-
Sounds to me like you are dealing with emotionally immature people. That is all; in my ever to be humble opinion. You haven't found the right people yet. Keep putting yourself out there, open doors for yourself- the right people will come along.

In my life- as I gained more maturity, (and I will be the first to say more growth and maturity is a welcome open path for me) I made more success of my life- in essence- grew myself up... I attracted more mature people in my life- people who stand on solid ground- people (butch, femme, and straight) who have made an adult life with adult responsibilities. Yes- we still will be bitches and assholes- but it's not from ice running through our veins. Sometimes it's just necessary to be an a**hole to get what we deserve when dealing with people who want to kick us to the curb.

I, too, was raised by a proud military dad. He is a man's man. As a kid, I hated him. LOL. I now deeply respect him and his strength- inner and outer. We share a deep bond. I am blessed. I look out on the world I live in and see people who are weak, don't respect themselves because no one showed them respect. It's sad... but that's another whole ball of wax.

Gentle- I know what you are talking about in seeing other so called butches acting as you describe them. Years ago it made me think I wasn't really butch because I didn't want to be like them.

Over the years, I learned more, matured more, and met more evolved people to learn even more from. It has allowed me to sum up for myself that what I see most prevalent... it is NOT anyone who I would hold up as an inner souce for growth... other then to show me an example of how I did NOT want to be.

Enjoy your path!

GrrlWonder
05-21-2004, 09:53 AM
Dammit bois I need some help. My boifriend (the reason I started this thread -- for clarity) is not the same person when we hooked up four years ago. We aren't sexually satisfied. Sometimes when he is trans-ish, it's all blowjobs and gender-roles (gret times). When he is butch, and not packing, and if i try to 'go down there' sometimes it's OK and sometimes it's a big NO NO. I never know until I try, and he wants me to try. I often times get denied.

I never know. We aren't talking about it enough. I am not getting laid enough. We aren't passionate.

We love eachother and are best friends. We have had incredible sex. But he is going through this confusing time and it is cutting off our sex life.

I need to be patient, loving, and kind. But I am so frustrated.

buccaneer2
05-21-2004, 11:30 AM
hey there Grrlwonder, i bet you will get some replies and advice soon from my more experienced buds but i just wanted to say that the fact of you just *wanting* to be patient, loving, and kind is a gift to your guy in of itself. It doesn't sound like you are going to give up on him, and for that he is really lucky.

i do know that sex can be very complicated and confusing when you're revising your ID and gender conceptions.

I hope things get better.

Peace,
Buc

strongsilenttype
05-21-2004, 07:06 PM
Originally posted by GrrlWonder
Dammit bois I need some help. My boifriend (the reason I started this thread -- for clarity) is not the same person when we hooked up four years ago. We aren't sexually satisfied. Sometimes when he is trans-ish, it's all blowjobs and gender-roles (gret times). When he is butch, and not packing, and if i try to 'go down there' sometimes it's OK and sometimes it's a big NO NO. I never know until I try, and he wants me to try. I often times get denied.

I never know. We aren't talking about it enough. I am not getting laid enough. We aren't passionate.

We love eachother and are best friends. We have had incredible sex. But he is going through this confusing time and it is cutting off our sex life.

I need to be patient, loving, and kind. But I am so frustrated.

Hello GrrlWonder. My life partner and I have been through MANY changes in our relationship over the last 9 years. Being transgendered and bordering on F2M- I can relate to your and your partner's problems. We are all different, I know- but I also know that any input from anybody can be helpful in reaching your own truth.

As a sexual person who fell in love with another sexual person- sexuality has been an important part of our relationship. We both were living a lie when we met. We both had been out for many years and trying to fit the PC lesbian mold. It took us some years of relationship trauma and LBD (lesbian bed death) to finally figure out our true selfs. Her bisexual desires, including desires of being with masculine women, and my closeted male self hidden inside me.... well- I could write a book on it... but our true selves merged over the years.

I am not the same person she met 9 years ago and she is not the same person I met 9 years ago. In our souls we can only be who we truly are. We were trying to form our relationship around who we thought we SHOULD be.

What I want to tell you is- look in your soul. If who you want and desire is one of the many degrees of the F2M/ Transgendered type- then, in my opinion- who you are with will become more right to you and the passion will grow as you let walls down with what you deeply desire.

You said you aren't getting laid enough. You need to define that, what that means to you. Express your desires to her/hym. You sound dissatisfied. Is your partner feeling the same dissatisfaction? In my opinion, you need to, point blank, bring this up.

My partner and I have have been there done that. In our further understanding of each other we grew together even closer over these very issues.. . we have come to know we are soul mates.

I wish you the same.

If it's not meant to be- follow your intuition. It will never let you down.

Good luck.

bit
05-21-2004, 11:59 PM
Wow, GrrlWonder, you can't win for losing, there! I would be climbing the walls if I were expected to try and then denied, again and again!! {{{{{{{{{{GrrlWonder}}}}}}}}}}}

I know you asked the bois, and I'm sure they'll be along, but I hope that in the meantime you don't mind my input. Is he maybe "going stone" in his butchness? Sometimes that happens to transguys as they try to work things out within themselves. Sometimes they come to a point where they only feel right about sex if they're strapping. Are you still using female language about his anatomy? Even if he preferred it that way in the past, it might not work for him right now.

I think if the two of you could talk about it when you're not in the bedroom, someplace quiet, calm, and neutral, maybe you could each talk about what you need, and how that has changed (or not) over time. Maybe he could understand how frustrating this is for you, and the two of you could find a solution that makes things better for you both.

If he is dealing with going stone, then it may be that for a while he's going to need to give without receiving, except for blow jobs. If you can accept that as a gift from him to you, it might ease your frustrations while he sorts things out. If this is the way things turn out, please do your best to avoid guilt, okay? It isn't either of your faults at all in any way if he can't receive the way he used to. And really, even if he's still frustrated over that, why should you both suffer? That doesn't make sense; better he should at least have the satisfaction of knowing that you're okay. You'll be better able to be supportive of him that way, too.

Good luck, sweetie. I hope it gets better quickly!

GrrlWonder
05-22-2004, 07:50 AM
Originally posted by buccaneer2


i do know that sex can be very complicated and confusing when you're revising your ID and gender conceptions.



Thank you for the simplicity in that statement, how quickly I forget what an amazing, life-changing transformation is occuring. I should/want to treat it like a rebirthing of newness! Everything is changing and the sex will get there soon... right?!

I can't rush what is happening in my boifriend.

Thanks buc, strongsilent, and bit. This community never ceases to amaze me! I feel better already.

Oh, well it also helps that i got laid yesterday. We had a good talk and GOOD NEWS: we are starting couples counseling next week with someone who deals with trans issues.

Love you all!

Daddy Bob
05-22-2004, 02:04 PM
Another great thread :-)

Was good to read that there are others out there!!!
I Id as Butch and transgendered-genderfucker .... Its very fluid for me the gender issues... Its never woman thou.... Its masculin Butch, gay, boish.... and mixede....

I thinks its a journey and we never know where we are going....

Its important to make room for the diffrent genderexpresions, and never forget we all are speciel...

Hugs
Daddy Bob ;-)

GrrlWonder
05-23-2004, 09:58 AM
Originally posted by Daddy Bob


I thinks its a journey and we never know where we are going....


True. I am so grateful for those of who tell your stories here, because I feel less alone in this world.

I really want some femme friends with tranny boifriends in my life. It would be so nice to relate.

(l)

bit
05-23-2004, 11:05 PM
GrrlWonder, yay on getting laid and yay on getting counseling-- but most of all, YAY on finding a trans-friendly counselor!!!

Hi, Buc and Daddy Bob, welcome to the thread!

buccaneer2
05-24-2004, 09:09 AM
thanks Bit (hi!) and Grrlwonder, that's great to hear that you found a trans counseling resource! so good to hear something hopeful and positive, amid all the struggles we are all going through...

peace,
Buc

Daddy Bob
05-25-2004, 10:33 AM
Thanks BIT and GrrlWonder

Its indeed good to be here and share *S*

Hugs
Daddy Bob

Tryke
05-26-2004, 06:48 AM
This thread has been such a fine example of the meaning of community. Like buc said, this site is such a terrifically supportive place. Weather one is a fully transitioned FTM, Trans Questioning or a Significant Other of a Trans Guy, one can find a welcoming community here in Butch/Femme's Trans Forums, Lists and Chat Room.


gentle_butch said,


yes, Bit, i agree completely on the respect issue. I think that what separates my so called "butch" friends from me. They are rude, insensitive and very disrespectful and have somehow gotten the impression, (probably from society's views on how they see butch women) that you have to be all hardcore and an asshole to be a butch. I do not believe this to be the case at all. I am a very respectful person, my father was in the military for 22 years, and I myself joined the military. I was raised on proper manners and respect. A lot of my friends think I'm unable to stand up for myself or that I'm weak, but anyone who knows me will know I will definitely stand up for myself, because I'm not a doormat, yet I believe very much in proper manners and respect.

While my father raised my brothers to be as sexist and boorish as himself, I was lucky enough to have had an exceptional role model in an older Butch named Lou who took me under her wing... taught me manners and to be respectful of others... again from very different places we have ended up being very much the same my friend.


GrrlWonder said,


We love each other and are best friends. We have had incredible sex. But he is going through this confusing time and it is cutting off our sex life.

I need to be patient, loving, and kind. But I am so frustrated.

GrrlWonder, the many changes my sexuality has been through physically, emotionally and psycho-sexually would make even the average fully post op FTM's head spin. lol However through all of it, I never had a woman like yourself by my side who didn't run when the going got tough. Your determination to work through this with your partner demonstrates both emotionally maturity and strength of character.


buc said,


i do know that sex can be very complicated and confusing when you're revising your ID and gender conceptions.

Buc, what more can I say buddy... you said it all so eloquently and I just want to be sure you are aware of how much you have grown over the past year my friend... now it is indeed you who has become an excellent Butch role model and you should be very proud of yourself.


strongsilenttype said,


As a sexual person who fell in love with another sexual person- sexuality has been an important part of our relationship. We both were living a lie when we met. We both had been out for many years and trying to fit the PC lesbian mold. It took us some years of relationship trauma and LBD (lesbian bed death) to finally figure out our true selfs. Her bisexual desires, including desires of being with masculine women, and my closeted male self hidden inside me....

I am not the same person she met 9 years ago and she is not the same person I met 9 years ago. In our souls we can only be who we truly are. We were trying to form our relationship around who we thought we SHOULD be.

What I want to tell you is- look in your soul. If who you want and desire is one of the many degrees of the F2M/ Transgendered type- then, in my opinion- who you are with will become more right to you and the passion will grow as you let walls down with what you deeply desire.

StrongSilentType, “Lesbian Bed Death” Two years into my last LTR we hit this and continued to go in and out of it over then next five years... though we were not Soul Mates, and in the end she left me for a biological male... while I was heartbroken at the time, deep inside I knew this was for the best, as I needed to be free of her in order to find myself... thank you, I sometimes need reminding of that.


Cathepillar said,


I know you asked the bois, and I'm sure they'll be along, but I hope that in the meantime you don't mind my input. Is he maybe "going stone" in his butchness? Sometimes that happens to transguys as they try to work things out within themselves. Sometimes they come to a point where they only feel right about sex if they're strapping. Are you still using female language about his anatomy? Even if he preferred it that way in the past, it might not work for him right now.

I think if the two of you could talk about it when you're not in the bedroom, someplace quiet, calm, and neutral, maybe you could each talk about what you need, and how that has changed (or not) over time. Maybe he could understand how frustrating this is for you, and the two of you could find a solution that makes things better for you both.

Cath sometimes we don't even know what it is we do need or want for that matter... that is until we come into our own, when we finally discover and/or accept ourselves for who we really are... yes, once again you have demonstrated how well you truly do understand us darlin'.


GrrlWonder said,


Oh, well it also helps that i got laid yesterday. We had a good talk and GOOD NEWS: we are starting couples counseling next week with someone who deals with trans issues.

GrrlWonder, most Sex/Gender Therapists are highly qualified to assist with the problems a couple going through the process of transition may encounter... remember that all of our thoughts and well wishes are with you both... we will also continue to be here for you.



love & peace,
Pat

:[

femmeextreme
05-26-2004, 04:24 PM
{{{{{{{Tryke}}}}}}}, great to see your new avatar, I don,t know if you saw my comment to it in your gallery, I said you looked like a young David Bowie, hope that,s a compliment.(x)

Tryke
05-27-2004, 06:08 AM
I said you looked like a young David Bowie, hope that,s a compliment.

Darlin' that is one of the nicest compliments this 51 year old Trans-Guy had received in ages... have even told friends in real time that you said that... I am so flattered, thank you very much! *kotc*

(f)

love & peace,
Pat

:[

buccaneer2
05-27-2004, 09:58 AM
Originally posted by Tryke
Buc, what more can I say buddy... you said it all so eloquently and I just want to be sure you are aware of how much you have grown over the past year my friend... now it is indeed you who has become an excellent Butch role model and you should be very proud of yourself.

this is such a compliment, coming from you, my friend---thank you

love and respect,
Buc

femmeextreme
05-27-2004, 02:43 PM
Originally posted by Tryke
Darlin' that is one of the nicest compliments this 51 year old Trans-Guy had received in ages... have even told friends in real time that you said that... I am so flattered, thank you very much! *kotc*

(f)

love & peace,
Pat

:[

Tryke , your very welcome my man(k) (x)

GrrlWonder
05-29-2004, 06:19 AM
GrrlWonder, most Sex/Gender Therapists are highly qualified to assist with the problems a couple going through the process of transition may encounter... remember that all of our thoughts and well wishes are with you both... we will also continue to be here for you.

:[ [/B][/QUOTE]


Counseling is on Tuesday! I will let you know what happens. This thread has been most helpful! Is anyone on Friendster? I am the biggest dork. But let me know.

strongsilenttype
05-31-2004, 11:49 AM
Hello GrrlWonder. I just wanted to wish you and yours the best of luck with your new therapist. May you two grow closer then ever with further understanding and love. All it takes is the will to open up and learn from both of you. It's a never ending process.

What's "Friendster"?

Nickyboi
05-31-2004, 11:31 PM
I consider myself butch and tranny...In a big part just because I've been ID'ing as butch for over ten years, and its hard to stop. Also because that's still who I feel like I am now...I'm in transition. Maybe someday I won't feel like a butch, just like I've never felt like a lesbian. Maybe I always will. Dunno....

gentle_butch_4_u
06-03-2004, 05:14 PM
aaack, I am so out of the loop lately, been working like CrAzY hours and for some reason, when someone posts in this group, it's not sending a notification to my main email address like I set it up to be..hmm, i'll have to take a look at that...ANYway, the reason I'm posting is to update y'all as to what has been going on lately. I have been seeing a therapist for about 2 months now, and I got the go ahead to start my hormone therapy. I am so excited/scared I don't know what to do. I guess until now, I thought it was just a fantasy that would never happen, but now it's REAL,and it's happening to me. So, now all I have to do is contact this referral doc and set myself up an appointment. So, step 1 and 2 are now accomplished...next is the legal name change, anyone run into any problems with this?? and if so, how did you get around it?

Tryke
06-07-2004, 08:21 AM
First congratulations on the go ahead to start taking T'… this is a huge step and one that no one should take unless they are 100% certain it is the right path for them to explore... though feeling both excited and scared is only normal under the circumstances... name change protocols vary from state to state, though most handle this through the probate courts... if you don't have a criminal record or unresolved debt you shouldn't run into any problems here... re: this site and threads of interest... you need to be sure you checked off yes for e-mail notification in your profile options and that you also have clicked "Subscribe to this Tread", located down at the bottom of that thread's pages...

love & peace,
Pat

:[

Nickyboi
06-07-2004, 11:09 AM
Gentle Butch- that happens to me too with the email...It's getting filtered out by my anti-spam filter and going to "bulk mail". Just too lazy to navigate my way around to find out how to allow it (hitting "not spam" doesn't help for some reason)...Do you have SBC Yahoo?

SpinxxieFairy
06-07-2004, 11:17 AM
personally I love the tranny aspect.. i think it is really sexy that you can explore all aspects of yourself.. all I can about is the person is hymself.. that's it..

hugs to all

SF(l)

femmeextreme
06-07-2004, 12:34 PM
Originally posted by gentle_butch_4_u
aaack, I am so out of the loop lately, been working like CrAzY hours and for some reason, when someone posts in this group, it's not sending a notification to my main email address like I set it up to be..hmm, i'll have to take a look at that...ANYway, the reason I'm posting is to update y'all as to what has been going on lately. I have been seeing a therapist for about 2 months now, and I got the go ahead to start my hormone therapy. I am so excited/scared I don't know what to do. I guess until now, I thought it was just a fantasy that would never happen, but now it's REAL,and it's happening to me. So, now all I have to do is contact this referral doc and set myself up an appointment. So, step 1 and 2 are now accomplished...next is the legal name change, anyone run into any problems with this?? and if so, how did you get around it?
Good luck, Gentle, hope all goes to plan, I,m sure you will do just fine.(k) (l)

SpinxxieFairy
06-07-2004, 03:35 PM
Originally posted by SpinxxieFairy
personally I love the tranny aspect.. i think it is really sexy that you can explore all aspects of yourself.. all I can about is the person is hymself.. that's it..

hugs to all

SF(l)


OOOPS correction.. - it should have been.. all I care about is that the person is hymself...

GrrlWonder
06-12-2004, 10:33 AM
Hello GrrlWonder. I just wanted to wish you and yours the best of luck with your new therapist. May you two grow closer then ever with further understanding and love. All it takes is the will to open up and learn from both of you. It's a never ending process.

What's "Friendster"?

We hated the therapist. Yes she was open minded but totally uneducated. She was very text book with solution about my boifriend's depression and anxiety. He felt backed into a corner. We will find another therapist with more compassion and more hip! She didnt even know a thing about fetish/roles - we had to explain ourselves too much.

"Friendster" is a website that links you to your friends, and their friends, so you can see the "4 degrees of seperation" between people. IT's addictive.

bettispaghetti
06-12-2004, 12:22 PM
I'm just blown away by the courage I see in these posts---what some of you have gone through in order to be true to yourselves is truly remarkable. I feel so privileged to be able to learn about what some of you experience.

strongsilenttype
06-24-2004, 06:07 PM
That suxs, Girrlwonder. I've had therapy help me for other problems that are more common to the human race- but to find a therapist with first hand experience with anything to do with transgenderism- I would certainly be first in line- but I've had my own bad experiences with therapists wanting to help me with issues of being queer when they were clueless. Having to explain myself, like you two had to- that's bad news. I hope you two find some solutions. If nothing else- alot of open minded talking to each other, and tryng to keep emotions on an even keel could help. My partner and I know about that first hand.

lara earthling
08-27-2004, 07:59 AM
"my friends are all lesbians, but not into the butch-femme scene, nor anything like transgendered folk... "

Someone on this thread wrote the above and I would belatedly like to support that person in finding friends, if possible, who are accepting of WHEREVER she or anyone else falls on the gender spectrum. To swallow your own identity, in order to protect disapproving friends, causes self-hatred in the long run. It's hard to digest. Good luck to all.

Tryke
08-30-2004, 07:03 AM
"my friends are all lesbians, but not into the butch-femme scene, nor anything like transgendered folk... "

Someone on this thread wrote the above and I would belatedly like to support that person in finding friends, if possible, who are accepting of WHEREVER she or anyone else falls on the gender spectrum. To swallow your own identity, in order to protect disapproving friends, causes self-hatred in the long run. It's hard to digest. Good luck to all.


Amen!!!




(f)

Peace,
Pat

:[

deeder
09-27-2004, 10:54 AM
Every single time I turn the corner here and I stumble on these threads
I am amazed there are others like myself in this world .......

I wanna shake Daddy Rhons hand and give miz Chris a big kotc !!!!!!

I hope you two realize the full extent of what you have done for the lives of many....

Well,,, Im transgendered......no doubt about it.....The only thing that keeps going through my mind now is that Im normal ....

Im a Normal ass..Transgendered StoneButch..Taxpaying...Normal !!! Normal !!!! Asskickin Normal.. Fuckin Human Being !!!!!!!!

Good day to all My normal asskickin brothers ans sisters !!!!!!

Tryke
09-28-2004, 07:08 AM
Every single time I turn the corner here and I stumble on these threads
I am amazed there are others like myself in this world .......

I wanna shake Daddy Rhons hand and give miz Chris a big kotc !!!!!!

I hope you two realize the full extent of what you have done for the lives of many....

Well,,, Im transgendered......no doubt about it.....The only thing that keeps going through my mind now is that Im normal ....

Im a Normal ass..Transgendered StoneButch..Taxpaying...Normal !!! Normal !!!! Asskickin Normal.. Fuckin Human Being !!!!!!!!

Good day to all My normal asskickin brothers ans sisters !!!!!!


^5 deeder

*extending hand to shake*

Couldn't have said it any better myself... good to meet ya bro!!!

love & peace,
Pat

:[

deeder
09-28-2004, 09:43 AM
^5 deeder

*extending hand to shake*

Couldn't have said it any better myself... good to meet ya bro!!!

love & peace,
Pat

:[

Heya Pat........

*Shaking your hand vigorously*
Hows it going bro !!!!!
I know I get excited , I feel this way everytime I identify with my brothers !
Nice to meet you too , man !!!! (h)

darlingfemme
09-28-2004, 09:59 AM
Tranny butches are a sexy minority in my opinion. It takes a strong femme to really know how to nurture and understand her partner's needs. I think it takes courage to ID as such.

Thanks for all your thoughts.


My thoughts exactly Grrl... thank you so much for the thread, I haven't even read it all the way through yet... but I like it!

My butch mostly id's as tg, but in work/professional settings... or mixed company, it tends to mix butch/tg..... people who don't know any better say she etc... but HE passes in public, and IMHO that is yuuuummmy......

I can't speak entirely for him, but I tell you what, tg butches are in fact HOT HOT HOT... Mine just a gets me motor runnin!
ok... back to reading the thread....and behaving....

*grin*