To beat or not beat a wife?

[Kira]

I performed a general search for any threads/posts with the term “wife beater”. I was surprised to find that not one thread addressed how offensive this term is. Unfortunately, I’m only more pissed off about it now because I read through post after post with the term being used as common language.

FYI if anyone stomps in here screaming “PC police”? You can fuck me running. Just so you know, EVERY TIME you whine like that, it only demonstrates your lack of tolerance for criticism that strikes too close to home.

I am curious as to why this term is so widely accepted. It’s just a play on words, right? Or maybe a misguided attempt to lighten up a serious phenomena? If either of those assumptions is correct, would it be ok to call these shirts "child rapers"? How about "African American lynchers"… or, "Jew killers"? No? Not funny?

I do not think it is amusing either. Neither is domestic violence. It is not entertaining that domestic violence injures more women between the ages of 14 (FOURTEEN! Our babies, for shit's sake!) and 44 each year than all of the car accidents, muggings and rapes combined. © Violence Prevention Coalition of Greater Los Angeles, 1997.

Count to 60. When you finish counting, 6 women will have been beaten.

The term wife beater is offensive and disgusting. PERIOD. I am not pointing a finger at any one person, and I know for a fact that people here whom I have begun to establish friendships with use this term on a regular basis. I hope my feelings on this issue do not damage these new relationships. But I stand by my convictions regarding the “wife beater” term. And I beg you all to try to think about it the next time you use this term, and TRY to find new language to describe something as trivial as an article of clothing.

Walk in strength and beauty,
Kira

[audacious1]

well.

As everyone knows, I am really pretty much the epitome of anti-PC, but...

I hate the term "wife-beater." Growing up in Jersey we called them Dago - Tees, I assume because Italians wore them and made them fashionable.

One night, in gay.com chat someone mentioned wearing a wife beater, and I said just what I did above. Holy shit! The most Correct of the Politically Correct jumped on my lily white ass and denounced my "slur."

I basically said what you did, how offensive I found the term, yada yada. As a witness to domestic violence I have long found the term detestable. Thank you, Kira, for making me feel a little less like a prig. At least now I am not a solo stick in the mud.

The technical name is "A-Line Tee" (though being sleeveless they don't really "T," but let's allow that to slide, shall we?). I know I will take some flak, but I also feel the need to express how incredibly overrated I find this particular bit of "butch attire;" such a lazy grasp at masculinity. They look good on so few people. And um. It's underwear.


~MrBent

*waiting*

[JstAButch]

Okay for the record........ This butch does not wear those kind of T-shirts. I like my regular t-shirts or my tank tops. And my femme hates that word worse then I do..... My normal comment when someone says I'm wearing a wife beater I ask them..... So you're a wife beater huh? I know but it usually gets the point across for the next time I talk with them... Okay that's enough babble from me.

JstAButch

[redindigo]

it's disturbing and shameful that the only time this crap *really* hits close to home for people is if they've been exposed to domestic abuse...where wife beating is a reality to them. until that point, it's an unfortunate matter of political correctness (which is a bunch of crap...no matter how you identify on the pc scale).

i'm also disturbed by the fact that it's such a staple in the "butch" wardrobe...so strictly butch, in fact, that i was called butch for wearing a sleeveless white tank top and baggy jeans to a show one night (i had just returned from the beach and was terribly sunburned). you're right, aud. it's just ficking underwear.

-- red

[UrBelovedFemme]

Since I've suffered some of this injustice...I too find this term incredibly offensive. I do not understand how an article of clothing can take on such an offensive term and have it be acceptable...especially given the statistics above.

I have known others felt the same, it's nice to put in in black and white.

Kira...thank you

Beloved

[BigSkyMidnight]

Just weighing in with my support.

I *loathe* the term, for all the reasons people have already mentioned.

When it comes to what I call "a men's undershirt" as clothing... it's like a shaved head -- there are a few people it suits, but it's really not flattering to most people.

-- BigSky

[lokired]

Along with the rest of you , those two words make me shudder.........being a victim of domestic abuse i cant stand those words used in any form.
Unless its in the sentence.........."this man will now serve a life sentence in jail for being a wife beater"

just my 2 cents

[Redgypsie80]

Ok, I'm hoping NOT to piss a bunch of people off here.

*snipped from another thread*
*posted by me*


isn't that a terrible term...I don't know where it started. But a wife-beater is a ribbed tank undershirt (usually white, but I like the gray ones) that I think is kinda standard for most butches...at least that I've seen

Ok so anyways, I think the term isn't exactly nice, but I use it. And I have also been a victim of domestic abuse, I wasn't his wife, but I am the mother of his child, and he did beat me...numerous times. But you know what, if I can't laugh at it now, I can't deal with it. THAT is the only way I've been able to deal with it.

A friend of mine told me that the shirts were called that as a joke. That I guess if you watch COPS often enough and you happen to catch a domestic violence episode (or whatever) the men who are being arrested for beating up their spouses usually had on one of those shirts.

So it's kinda funny to me. No offense to those people who don't think it's funny. I guess I just wanted to add my opinion here...

~Red~

[Varga_Girl]

Just wanted to say, thank you for starting this thread, and thank you to everyone who has been respectful of the topic, so far.

I've also been touched, directly, by domestic violence, and it bothers me on many levels, to see such my experience, as well as the experience and reality of millions of others, minimized and trivialized, in that manner.

I've been branded a PC Fascist before, on this site, for objecting to the term; I'm hoping perhaps a few folks who use the term will wander by this thread and read, with an open heart and an open mind.

[ShadowWolf]

Audy - I dont wear them .. Im a t-shirt and muscle shirt (muscles - ha!) kinda gal - never could understand the wearing of a male undershirt as a shirt ..

I hate the term as well - no idea where it came from or why we use it - it is deplorable ..

Im sorry that so many of you have experienced domestic violence first hand - that term must be a slap in the face to all of you ..

Let's all agree to change it

[Heart]

There WAS a bit of a war about this term on the old forum. As a domestic violence advocate, I can't take it lightly. And when someone tells me to lighten up about it, I ask them to spend one day in the shelter I run for battered women and their kids.

I get riled up about the on-going transmission of this term to younger generations. Adolescents, a very fashion-conscious and hip-talk bunch, are hugely at risk for violence in their relationships. I'm not saying the term *causes* violence, but it's usage does minimize it.

I think the term may have originated after the Brando movie "Streetcar Named Desire' came out. He wore one in the famous "STELLAAAAAAA" scene. He had just beat up his pregnant wife, but he's the muscled, romantic, sexy, primal man, she can't stay away from. I love the play and the movie. I have no problem with literature depicting complex, flawed human relationships in the context of their culture and times.

But words are powerful. Words create images. When I hear those words to describe an undershirt, I cringe. I don't think romance or sex. I've seen awful things. Those things play like a fast-motion flick in my head when I hear those words.

Call them A-shirts, muscle-shirts... why does this term continue to proliforate? Thanks Kira for calling attention to it.

Heart
*yes, I AM the self-appointed PC police chick*

[sensualrain65]

the term is completely offensive...I agree completely...I am not sure if the term "Tank-top" is just Canadian...but that is what I call it!!

[tahoechica1]

Ok, So Wife-beater is exactly PC, but is only a term, in fact it is one of those terms like , Go Go boots, Bomber jacket, Catholic-School girl skirt. I don't like it because it's vulgur so I don't say it. I am not an easily offended person I guess, I am not a person who is offended by being asked if I am on the "rag" or riding the "cotton pony". If you are not one of those people who walk around in a greasy "Wife-Beater", yelling "ho, go fix me a sandwich", with a beer in your hand and the other tightly wraped around her hair, don't worry about it. On another note, if you are , shame on you, you Wife beater, who also happens to be wearing a "wife-beater".

Reina

[ShadowWolf]

*never mind*

This post was NOT about tahoechica's post - but something else altogether

[tahoechica1]

That is pretty much what I expected. That's ok it's just one femme's opinion

Reina

[SweetBlueDiva43]

I am thankful that you have brought this to light here in this forum. I work on campus at the WRC here at SOU.....that is the Womyns Resource Center.

Those statistics are pretty much true....except they could be higher in other area's....

If anyone has the time....and is near a university setting...look up your local WRC....we sponsor a film series....and upcoming in this new month of January is a film called "rachels daughters"

also in the month of April....is national Sexual Assault month.

the term i prefer for these shirts is....A-line. Underwear.

and they are a hideous asset for any butch IMO to wear.....

i think there are other ways to dress.....and usually the A-line shirt is a big big turnoff to me.

again....thanks Kira!(l)

[power]

you know it must be an american thing.. no offence.. i have never heard the term "wife beater" being used for anything other than to put a label on the assholes that do this crude thing. as far as i can understand you are describing what we call a "singlet".. i hope i am right. :) to use such a name to describe something is beyond my comprehension. i watched my mother get thrown from one end of the house to the other and if this prick felt kind we would only have to eat off the floor that night. and if i was real lucky (which wasnt often) he wouldnt sneak into my room. i dont normally do the whole PC thing, but i have to on this. it is completely outrageous that someone would want to wear something with such a derogatory meaning. how the hell can you use such a name on an item of clothing? perhaps it is because we dont use it here in australia (at least not that i have heard of).. but to those that do, i can only assume you use it or accept it becuase such shit has not touched your lives (which i hope will stay that way).. can someone not change this? well that is my bit. now that i am all irate from reading that!

take care and be safe all!

[TenderKnight]

Thank you for this thread, Kira.

I have been never been touched directly by domestic violence (came close a couple of times, but it didn't get too out of hand...) and i don't wear A-shirts, i prefer tees. I don't use the wife beater term, and i don't really like reading it.

I have been known in the past to have laughed at the term, but i would never do so now.. It isn't a laughing matter.

-TK, just leaving my two cent

[AJ]

This thread dovetails interestingly in my mind with the thread on differences between bluecollar/ white collar butches.

The use of the term "wife-beater" is a pointed example of the history of classism and class stereotypes in the US.

Some examples of stereotypes:

Only working-class/ poor men, men who are recent immigrants are batterers.

Batterers are beer-drinking, dirty, ignorant, inarticulate beasts

Working class men are more manly, which is more bestial, wilder/less civilized masculinity...and therefore more prone to violence.

****

(these 3 stereotypes are statistically unfounded, batterers come from every segment of society).

Interestingly, up until the 1970s or so, all western men wore some kind of undershirt, but it was considered "ungentlemanly" by the middle and upper classes to be seen partially undressed.

It was a marker of someone who did manual labour for a living, whose clothing got dirty during the course of a day's work and had to be washed.

(sounds a lot like the origin of the term redneck doesn't it. That's another classist term that people love to use without thinking)


I don't use the term myself, but I don't have a problem with wearing the shirt - what does that have to do with anything?

AJ

(hi heart;))

[tahoechica1]

I don't like the term, I don't use it. I shirt is a shirt and many butchs look damn good it that particular shirt

Reina

[DrMartenDaddy]

I think what irritates me more is when children use the term for the article of clothing.

[GG]

What I think is interesting is that I had never in my life heard the phrase "wife beater" used for a tank top t-shirt before I came onto this site. I have known many people who wore them, but never knew what to call them. Are they called different names depending on where you live? I am originally a west coast girl.

[ShadowWolf]

It is a specific kind of tank, GG - a male ribbed undershirt ..

And Im not sure, but in the midwest and south, it is called a wife beater - I was introduced to it in the south ...

[BrainyFemme]

Originally posted by DrMartenDaddy
I think what irritates me more is when children use the term for the article of clothing.

I am writing a novel about domestic violence within the lesbian community and have been a victim myself and I find the term extremely offensive. I was the Customer Service Manager for a company (here in Southern CA) that sells clothing and equipment for extreme sports via internet and catalogues!

The last issue that we had while I was there (which was mailed to at least 250,000 homes nationwide and directly targetted the under 18 crowd in about half of those homes....namely skateboarders) contained that term

When I objected, I got lots of rolled eyes and sidelong glances. But then, after my boss finally realized I was NOT kidding about lesbian, I was also unceremoniously dumped within 6 weeks, which shows you what kind of company it was.

The idea that I was working for a company that had no idea in what bad taste that term was, made my skin crawl.

Thanks to all who have posted. My hat's off to all of you!

Laura <---Guapo's grrl and full-time smartass

[blush]

Everyone has made such interesting points in here. I'd like to add my opinion.

I love those shirts on butches. I don't know why, I just do. The issue is not really whether we like the shirts or not, though. I've called them wife-beaters for the reasons posted by Redgypsie80. I always found it ironic to use such a derogatory term for a staple (for many) article of clothing for butches. Frankly, I never thought of it as offensive because I thought the irony was self-evident.

However, after reading everyone's posts and hearing another side to this, I find myself reconsidering the phrase.

If not using that phrase means that someone who has been affected by spousal abuse doesn't have to be reminded of it, then it seems worthwhile to drop it from my vocabulary.
Blush

[MsMissy]

I am a survivor of domestic violence. I am most certainly NOT a butch. I do consider the men's ribbed tank a part of my summer wardrobe and I think I look damned good in them too! ;)

I like Audy, grew up calling these undershirts dago-tees, which I also consider as politically incorrect and as demeaning as wifebeater.

[Hankie]

I also have used this term for years but had never thought beyond the words "wife-beater". I come from a home filled with domestic violence but I simply never thought about the term in any way other than that it was the name I had learned those types of shirts were called.

Kira, I appreciate your bringing this topic up and I thank everyone for their input. That term is one I will never again use.

[Heart]

great points AJ (as usual ;)).

clarification: when I said that using the term "wife-beater" minimizes domestic violence, I meant that it dismisses it, normalizes it, makes us think less about it, NOT that it reduces it.

Just needed to articulate that.

Heart

P.S. Btw, I think A-line shirts are sexy

[Kira]

You are an amazing group of people. I commend every one of you for your contributions to this thread. It was my first, and honestly, I feared might be my last. lol I wasn't sure if I would get my butt flamed right off of the B-F site.

THIS is how community is supposed to work. You all RAWK! (f)

Kira

[joey1]

I agree with that fact that the labels are offensive and insensitive. I have caught myself saying it a time or two and always feel like a caveman when I actually hear myself..

However, I do think it is interesting when people (by people I mean a previous poster) refer to them as a "male" shirt. True they are technically designed for men and found in the mens section..I just think we, as a whole, use gender labels too much.

[joey1]

LOL..I meant "cavePERSON"

:)

[Alisha_Love]

I might catch a lot of shit for this, but no difference, my opinion: the term doesnt bother me . Ive used it before, and to me, its not a big deal whatsoever - Id never put it in the same category as "AA Lynchers or Jew Killers" - I dont think EVERYTHING has to be so PC, so tragic..whatever...

Oh, and before anyone asks, YES Ive been a victim of domestic abuse at the hands of a butch - and it still doesnt change anything for me.

BTW, Butches are not the only ones that wear em. I wear em all the time. Go figure.

Alisha
*Lookin out the window for the angry mob to come...

[Words]

I'd never heard the term - which I also find incredibly offensive - before joining B/F. In the UK, we'd call the item in question a ribbed vest (vest being the word we use for what I think is referred to in the States as an undershirt). I guess that vest in the US means something else, no?

Words

[Kira]

Originally posted by Alisha_Love
I might catch a lot of shit for this, but no difference, my opinion: the term doesnt bother me . Ive used it before, and to me, its not a big deal whatsoever - Id never put it in the same category as "AA Lynchers or Jew Killers" - I dont think EVERYTHING has to be so PC, so tragic..whatever...

Oh, and before anyone asks, YES Ive been a victim of domestic abuse at the hands of a butch - and it still doesnt change anything for me.

BTW, Butches are not the only ones that wear em. I wear em all the time. Go figure.

Alisha
*Lookin out the window for the angry mob to come...




No, no mob squad. It's just really REALLY evident that you completely miss the point of addressing this topic. And it is not a PC issue. Calling it a PC issue is lazy. It is a generic "gee I really don't know how else to discredit this issue so I'll just call it PC" response. *shrug* To each their own.

Kira

[Alisha_Love]

Originally posted by Kira
No, no mob squad. It's just really REALLY evident that you completely miss the point of addressing this topic. And it is not a PC issue. Calling it a PC issue is lazy. It is a generic "gee I really don't know how else to discredit this issue so I'll just call it PC" response. *shrug* To each their own.

Kira No love, I didnt miss the point, but I dont share the same opinion as you. Thats the bottom line...Im not trying to discredit anything, I gave my opinion on something. So, accept that people dont have to agree with ya. and YES, to each their own.

[redindigo]

kira, i (l) you dearly. unfortunately, one cannot force a person to look beyond their blinders. thanks for posting this, though. it's comforting to know that there are people out there with the same or similar sentiments as me...

-- red

[Kira]

Originally posted by redindigo
kira, i (l) you dearly. unfortunately, one cannot force a person to look beyond their blinders. thanks for posting this, though. it's comforting to know that there are people out there with the same or similar sentiments as me...

-- red

Aww shucks. :$ I heart you too... and it was mah pleasure.

Kira

[Tryke]

I started seeing this term used in the Trans-Threads frequently a while back and it made me cringe each and every time it was posted... also felt guilty for not speaking up about my discomfort with the term… personally don't own nor ware one btw.

Am at work when online and don't always have time to read all the posts on each thread I want to post too... I just want to add that anyone who was silenced and/or dissed for stating their distaste for this term, were treated very shabbily by there fellow community members... something that happens entirely too often on these forums in my personal opinion.

love & peace,
Pat

:[

[femmeheart]

Well, I guess I'll be catchin' the shit too, Alisha right along w/ ya , (Oh well) because I agree with you. People are going to have they're own different perspective, but that doesn't mean they advocate abuse, that just means that they don't agree w/ *YOUR* perspective on the issue. No one person's feelings are more valid than any another's here. If you don't like the term (or the shirt) it's quite simple really..then don't use it, and don't wear it.


And for the record, I use it, and I wear it too. And so does my Jewish butch.

P.S. And I don't know about you Ms. Alisha, but I for one, DO NOT appreciate other people tryng to tell me how I SHOULD feel according to their beliefs and opinions. And if that's how a "community" (in YOUR mind) is supposed to work, then count me out, cause I want no part of that.

FH

[redindigo]

listen...i could personally care less whether you believe the same things i do or not. the point of this discussion is not whether to call something a pastry or a donut. it's the fact that the term wife beater, used casually to describe an article of clothing, is offensive to many people...abused or not. it's not about changing what you say or what you think either. it's expanding your mental repetoire to include ways of thinking CLEARLY outside of your mainstream. in fact, that's the point of this entire site. to share information and make people think in ways they've never thought before.

there was a time when i could've cared less about the fact that people refer to an undershirt as a wife beater. of all the things to worry about, right? but if you look at the grand scheme, we're all victims of an oppressive vocabulary. it's everywhere. advertising most especially. go pick up jean kilbourne's book, can't buy my love, and expand your mind. it helped me understand that the little things we "don't really pay attention to" really do matter...the nuances and the side comments do affect people, ESPECIALLY WOMEN.

that's the point of this discussion. do we remain on this playing field of apathy...or do we rise above and accept the fact that words DO really hurt, and it wouldn't really hurt us to just say undershirt.

-- red

[ShadowWolf]

Originally posted by joey1
However, I do think it is interesting when people (by people I mean a previous poster) refer to them as a "male" shirt. True they are technically designed for men and found in the mens section..I just think we, as a whole, use gender labels too much. That would be me ..

And by male, I meant made for men and in the men's section of the store - thats all - it is the same as saying I wear men's clothes (bc I do) - they are made for men and sold in the men's section

There are ribbed tanks in the women's section that are not refered to as wife-beaters and I was trying to make that distinction

[Peach]

The use of the term "wife-beater" for this style of shirt has been discussed here before, in other threads, and has never had a good outcome. Its a nasty phrase, especially when people have survive domestic violence. Trying to make it a cutsy name for an undershirt doesnt work. Keep discussing if you must, but do it respectfully, and flame free.

[UrBelovedFemme]

Originally posted by redindigo
listen...i could personally care less whether you believe the same things i do or not. the point of this discussion is not whether to call something a pastry or a donut. it's the fact that the term wife beater, used casually to describe an article of clothing, is offensive to many people...abused or not. it's not about changing what you say or what you think either. it's expanding your mental repetoire to include ways of thinking CLEARLY outside of your mainstream. in fact, that's the point of this entire site. to share information and make people think in ways they've never thought before.

there was a time when i could've cared less about the fact that people refer to an undershirt as a wife beater. of all the things to worry about, right? but if you look at the grand scheme, we're all victims of an oppressive vocabulary. it's everywhere. advertising most especially. go pick up jean kilbourne's book, can't buy my love, and expand your mind. it helped me understand that the little things we "don't really pay attention to" really do matter...the nuances and the side comments do affect people, ESPECIALLY WOMEN.

that's the point of this discussion. do we remain on this playing field of apathy...or do we rise above and accept the fact that words DO really hurt, and it wouldn't really hurt us to just say undershirt.

-- red

Red...I (l) you

very well put indeed now bend over *wink*

[joey1]

I believe we are in agreement Shadow..was not trying to start something negative with you. I was simply noting a way of speaking that uses gender specific words.

My grrly and I are always noticing in general how rigid our society is with gender and gender terms.

No offense meant, I did understand what you meant btw.

[ShadowWolf]

Cool Joey *grin* thank you - I meant no offense by my response either ..

[femmeheart]

Red-
I understand your point of veiw, and where you're coming from. I've heard this argument before, here. The exchange of different thoughts and ideas is one thing, but putting people down for not sharing your views is quite another. And I do realize that it's not the most savory of terms. I respect that that's your opinion. But, I still disagree. (by the way, I too, was in an abusive relationship as well, so I don't need to read a certain book about it to expand my mind, thank you, I've lived it). I'll just leave it at that.


FH

[gayla]

I first heard the term from the daughter of my girlfriend at the time. I was also told that it came from Cops but who knows the truth. I've always called them A shirts and had not heard any other names until just a few years ago. Funny thing, most people have no idea what an A shirt is so I usually end up having to call them a beater before they understand.

I do find it disturbing to hear small children refer to them this way though.

[Kira]

There are a couple of points I would like to clarify. First, I would defend to the death your right to be offensive. If you are comfortable using a derogatory term in your vocabulary, more power to you. I am not going to agree with its use, and I will express my equally valid opinion about it.

Second, when I referred to this being the way a community should work, I meant that to apply to all responses. I am genuinely impressed to see this kind of dialog in a group. When I wrote it, I did not single out only those who agreed with me, nor did I exclude those who hadn't. I am not hard wired that way. It is not a mission in my life to convert others to the way I think. Now... expanding consciousness? Yes, I would say that is important to me. I am constantly seeking to raise my own.

Deep Peace,
Kira

[femmeheart]

Kira, I think much of what we say in everyday life could be construed as offensive to someone or another for many different reasons. As I said before, it is all relative. To you, this term is indeed offensive. To Alisha or myself, it is not an offensive term. And yes, of course your point is just as equally valid as mine is, and you are entitled to it, as am I. So I guess we will just agree, that we both disagree. No harm done on this end, I have actually really enjoyed this debate.

Be Well,
FH

[Alisha_Love]

Originally posted by femmeheart
Kira, I think much of what we say in everyday life could be construed as offensive to someone or another for many different reasons. As I said before, it is all relative. To you, this term is indeed offensive. To Alisha or myself, it is not an offensive term. And yes, of course your point is just as equally valid as mine is, and you are entitled to it, as am I. So I guess we will just agree, that we both disagree. No harm done on this end, I have actually really enjoyed this debate.

Be Well,
FH *Sigh* Thank you mami for saying it for the both of us....I left it alone before, and was thinking about responding..but thought better of it (saved myself from drama) before I said something and was accused of being abusive or flame-ish..Gracias. God forbid a difference of opinion.


;)
Alisha

[blush]

Maybe I'm crazy, but growing up we always called them tank tops.

Ms. Missy, *correcting myself* Both femmes and butches look fantastic in them. I was confessing my fetish for butches in tanks, and I got a little carried away! You, especially, look smashing in one! LOL

[femmeheart]

;)

FH

[MsMissy]

*blushing*

Thank you, blush!

[durden]

I have used the term wife beater without it ever tripping up my radar but that's not saying much. So many times common terms or phrases aren't given much thought because they are so common. If the young and old, the rich and poor, etc., are all using the term then that's the flow and usually people go with it without much thought.

Of course think of all the awful words or phrases that societies have used in the past as common things that if uttered now would make 99.9% of everyone in a crowd stop and gasp.

So...I will give some thought to whether this is a term I will use still in my private life or not. As for using that term here, after hearing about how offensive it is to people, and understanding why and how it is, makes it a no brainer that I will refrain from saying it here (unless I accidentally go on auto pilot and forget).

I think to use a word because it doesn't offend you is often times missing the point. If it offends others and I can see their point then I have no problem changing my language out of respect.

[Kira]

Originally posted by durden
I think to use a word because it doesn't offend you is often times missing the point. If it offends others and I can see their point then I have no problem changing my language out of respect. [/B]

Thank you so much, Durden. That was exactly the point. (f)

Kira

[Varga_Girl]

This brings us to another question...

why do people choose to deliberately use words that they know are offensive and triggering for others?

[redindigo]

Originally posted by femmeheart
Red-
I understand your point of veiw, and where you're coming from. I've heard this argument before, here. The exchange of different thoughts and ideas is one thing, but putting people down for not sharing your views is quite another. And I do realize that it's not the most savory of terms. I respect that that's your opinion. But, I still disagree. (by the way, I too, was in an abusive relationship as well, so I don't need to read a certain book about it to expand my mind, thank you, I've lived it). I'll just leave it at that.


FH

femmeheart--

the book i mentioned is NOT about abuse, specifically. it does touch on it here and there. rather, it's about advertising and it's adverse affects on women and the perception of women in american society...much of which leads TO abuse. just wanted to clarify. i don't think i was unclear about what i said.

-- red

[redindigo]

others have said what my head is screaming...

the debate is NOT about whether you think the term is ok or not. it's about whether it's OK to say it when you KNOW that other people are offended by it.

same goes for such words as bitch, whore, slut, cunt, fag, n*g*er (because i was edited), kike, nazi, and the rest. i don't foresee a positive revival of the term "wife-beater" occuring anytime soon. nor do i think the "revivals" of said words have gone terribly well...

here's an exercise for everyone...think of one word that you are consistently offended by. imagine that your friend comes up to you and says it over and over again, without reverance to your feelings regarding the word. then, when you ask your friend to stop saying the word because it offends you, they ignore your request, say it's a difference of opinion, and continue repeating the word in casual and private conversation. wouldn't you be just the slightest bit irked by that? wouldn't it be more than just a matter of opinion?

free speech is one thing, but in this "community" i think we have the right to have discussions and perhaps turn a few heads about subject matters which we would otherwise not ponder, and subject matters that so clearly offend our peers...

-- red, who will not be silenced by this "i respect your opinion" crap

[redindigo]

one last thing.

i (l) you too UBF.

and i shall bend over for always and forever, amen.

[Heart]

Not meaning to nit-pick... but words are fascinating to me, as is the notion of re-claiming them, so I have to differ with some of your analysis re words like bitch, cunt, slut, whore, dyke...

Those have been used to describe someone, usually a woman, in derogatory terms meant to disempower her. So it becomes possible to invert them thru the way they are used, to re-claim them, re-empower them and change their meaning -- to a degree.
They will never be without the sting of their original intention and will always be offensive and upsetting to some, but I would defend their usage *by the folks they were originally meant to harm*.

But you can't re-claim or re-empower the words "wife beater" because they describe the person already holding, and abusing, the power. Therefore, those are words I resist using.

I would never intentionally use a word that I know upsets someone, but I don't think that one can monitor their usage quite so effectively on a forum with thousands of people on it. None of us would ever talk to each other - lol.

Heart

[redindigo]

what do you have to say about people, in general and more often heterosexuals, using the word "gay" to describe something "lame" or "stupid"...either an action or an object. that is not the abused using the word for inter-community purposes. same point, different word.

perhaps what i'm trying to emphasize here is that we can take action against the use of degrading language, but first we must remove it from our community. i don't like the term wife-beater, the word gay when it connotates assholish behavior, the word dyke when it is used negatively towards my sexuality, etc etc etc. i don't even like the fact that the black/african-american community uses the word ni@@er so flippantly, when the long-term connotation has been so negative. and i'm not black!

but until one can effectively deconstruct one's predjudices and the words in their vocabulary that could potentially harm others, one cannot change the state of affairs in the larger community of the world.

i suppose we could just turn this thread into a philosophical discussion of anthropological linguistics, but where's the fun in that? and furthermore, who the hell would visit it?

so let's talk about a-line shirts and how hot they look on our studly butches.

righty o.

-- red

[sam]

when i was a young'un, my grammy t was known for her predictable christmas presents: flannel pj's, slippers, socks,underwear and what she called camisole tops. they had stupid little bows, but basically were tank tops. to this day, even as i sit here in the grips of a cold maine winter i have my "camisole top" on. in the fall i buy brandi-new ones for the winter and wear one every day under my shirts. sometimes when i pull one out of the drawer i think of gram and her ways and miss the old girl, but i know she has stayed with me.

[audacious1]

Originally posted by redindigo
so let's talk about a-line shirts and how hot they look on our studly butches.

righty o.

-- red


that's so gay.

and, let me reiterate...


underwear.


nice "o" red

[redindigo]

damn it.

i always get it wrong.

underwear.

-- red

[ShadowWolf]

Originally posted by redindigo
what do you have to say about people, in general and more often heterosexuals, using the word "gay" to describe something "lame" or "stupid"...either an action or an object I actually called someone on doing that just a few mos ago ..

My friend and I were waiting to get into the theatre and this kid exclaimed, "Thats so gay!"

So I walked up to him and asked, "Do you mean that as in retarded or happy?"

He sputtered and stuttered and couldnt think of a good response - apparently, I scared the shit outta him *shrugs*

[tori]

and how did i miss this thread?

this topic was covered extensively on my old local b-f mailing list. only one or 2 on the list recalled the original name of 'guinea-t', and none knew the origination of that term. (the guinea was the lowest denomination of english money, and was used to describe italians, as being worthless). but, anyway ...

i have only censored my child in the use of one term in her life, and this was it.

as for 'gay' meaning lame, that is actually spelled 'ghey'. i haven't heard gay people use it, just teenagers, and they spell it differently to denote the difference...

[carole]

If someone here could help out a confused Brit?

What is a 'wife-beater'?

Thanks

Caz

[sharkchomp]

Carole - a wife beater is a tank top/sleeveless t shirt.

I've never used the term wifebeater for the shirt. I have always called them muscle t's. For some reason it made me uncomfortable to call them that.

I can understand how it makes some people uncomfortable to hear that word used for a t shirt - especially if it touches on thier own life experiences. I have never been physically abused, nor have I ever been an abuser but the word just seemed 'not right' when i heard it and went with the term muscle t.

Some people do use it. I do not think less of them for using it. I look at it this way... do you think the survivors of 9-11 get upset over the word 'bomber jacket'? That name did come from the style of jacket bombadiers (sp?) used to wear. Think of all the thousands of people who were killed by bombers. Are those survivors offended?

just some food for thought.

~~shark~~~~~~~~

[Letskeepitlite]

I've seen this thread around for awhile now, have clicked on it to comment, and then have said....nah, I can't relate...but I guess I still feel a need to comment huh..cuz I'm here.....I didn't grow up in a home of physical violence..never even heard my parents say anything other than , oh shit, on ocassion.....and what are in todays world called "wife beaters"...well, we called those dads summer t-shirts....god I know I sound sickening..but that's the way it was......so, I don't relate a t-shirt with beating a woman or child. While I visually recognize a "wife beater" t-shirt(from movies), to me (since you mentioned it)I relate that to a drunken, right wing, insecure redneck bully male shouting obscenities at those (in a sense) weaker(yet in all reality stronger) than he, in todays world...but prior to the term, I never tho't anything of it other than it being a t-shirt....and I understand you're focusing on a certain "mentality"which I despise...but let's focus on the MENTALITY ......not a piece of cotton. Those that feel a need to flex their.......cotton muscles........ are simply .....insecure.

[emtplatt]

Ok so my first thought was to find a link for the shirt in discussion being that I am from the south and know what said shirt is.

Instead I found this

*may offend*

Style #1080 Bella Husband Beater Strap Tank. 1x1 baby rib. 100% supersoft high quality cotton. Contured fit. Low shrinkage. Superior quality. Made in the U.S.A. **You can mix sizes and colors for dozen or case pricing**Please allow 2 weeks for delivery of Bella Apparel
Adult Sizes : S-M-L. View Colors)
Style # (View Colors) Case Price(1 case=6Doz) Dozen Price Piece Price
1080W White. $357($4.96each) $71.40($5.95each) $11.99
1080D Black, Red, Army, Pink, Deep-heather, Yellow, Orange, Navy, Baby-blue, Lime-wedge. $402($5.58each) $76.92($6.41each) $11.99
Wife Beater For Ladies Buy Now

the last line is just unbelieveable...

Then I found this link


A Line Shirts (http://www.zootsuitstore.com/Shopping/Catalog/product_detail.asp?ProductCode=UWASHIRT)

Now here is what I have to say.
Growing up in the south all I knew said shirt as was the "wb" it has had no other name. Until now. I did not even begin to think of it as an offensive term so thank you for helping me think outside the box. Maybe it is b/c I have grown up a little but at first I found this thread and was like damn it is just a word. But then someone made the point of the use of the word "gay" as in stupid and such. I have begun to notice just how much this pisses me off. A good friend of mine says it alot. Not much makes me uncomfortable but for some reason that does. As such even being a southern boi I can now appreciate that term offends people and as such will try and limit my use of it.

Respectfully
Preston

[carole]

Originally posted by sharkchomp
Carole - a wife beater is a tank top/sleeveless t shirt.



Ah! All becomes clear!

Here in the UK, we wouldn't use the term tank-top since they are something very old-fashioned here, and usually hand-knitted in nice paisley patterns.....

We would call them sleeveless T-shirts, or muscle T-shirts, so that's the same.

[Dial]

I'd never heard the term "wife beater" used to describe a shirt until about 3 or 4 years ago. Where I come from we used to call them tank tops, and I still do. I must admit that the term kinda gives me the creeps. I don't judge people who use the term, but it doesn't really work for me.

[Dancing_Diva]

Thanks for starting this thread Kira. I personally find the term extremely offensive and cringe whenever I read it.

~dd

[Kira]

I am truly pleased to see the dialog this thread has started. :)

[Nymphelle]

Kira--look how many people have already decided not to use this offensive term anymore because of this thread. You go sister!

And...I have to say I'm pleased to find another person "over" people throwing out the "PC" term whenever they feel someone objects to something they say. I'm sick to death of people hiding behind the PC shield as a way to protect themselves from criticism. If someone is going to put their comments and words out in a public forum, they're as vulnerable to the comments of others as anyone else. The First Amendment may give them the right to say most anything they damn well want to, but it also protects my right to tell them that they've got their head wedged tightly...well, you know...

...my two cents...

~Nymph

[Scorp]

I have to agree with the fact that I never called those "t-shirts" wifebeaters. I always thought that was messed up and offensive as well. I think the first time I've ever heard that was around 2 years ago while being online. That would be like folks calling <for instance> fems high heels RAPE ME AGAINST MY WILL PUMPS ...gimme a break...So you see, it's all just so damn wrong..........and my apologies if anyone takes offense to that. That WAS NOT my intent...I'm just making a point of what's appropriate and what isn't...............

I'm italian and would refer to those "sleeveless white ribbed shirts" as "moothandees" <btw spelled incorrectly> I never have worn them. BUT I do wear fruit of the loom and/or Hanes white cotton SHORT sleeve t-shirts. Hell I live in those and love them. Nuttin' like 100% cotton baby!

Anyway, just my 2 cents...

[Lisita_IA]

Originally posted by tori
and how did i miss this thread?

this topic was covered extensively on my old local b-f mailing list. only one or 2 on the list recalled the original name of 'guinea-t', and none knew the origination of that term. (the guinea was the lowest denomination of english money, and was used to describe italians, as being worthless). but, anyway ...

i have only censored my child in the use of one term in her life, and this was it.

as for 'gay' meaning lame, that is actually spelled 'ghey'. i haven't heard gay people use it, just teenagers, and they spell it differently to denote the difference...

Tori: I believe that the guinea (sic in this context, i believe) tee is referring to the same origin that Audy originally referred to as the Dago tee. Both are slang terms referring to Italians.

I think that trying to diffuse the offensive impact of using the word gay to derogatorily describe something by changing the spelling is a cop out. How often do we see it spelled? It's almost always said and everytime I've seen a note written by a young teen, it's spelled gay.

As for the term wifebeater, I was very shocked and offended when I first heard it. What I've seen as that with the prevalance of it's usage, I've become more desensitized to the impact of the phrase. I've even found myself referring to "beater" shirts because I know folks will know what I'm talking about. Since I saw that the package refers to them as an A shirt (*which in my mind i translated to asshole, lol - and yes I'm femme and I wear them and I think they look good on some men and some butches, too!*), I've started changing my language.

Finally, I do believe in reclaiming words. I regularly use words like dyke and fag because they are my people and I can.

Interesting thread. I appreciate being able to add my .02 cents...

Lisita

[xjackhammer]

Man am I guilty....
Ive used the term for years and never thought of it as offensive.
Thats because Im thick headed .

((( And I apologize to those Ive offended-)))
Reading through the thread Ive been enlightened.

Yep my new years resolution was to try to be less of a dickhead, putz,moron,prick,idiot,jerk,fuckhead,dumb ass,dickhead...oh I already said that huh.
Well you get the idea.

Just looked like a good place to start...........

[tori]

lisita - yes, both terms refer to italians. the funny part is that 'dago' is derived from 'diego', which is clearly spanish, not italian. those english weren't very accurate in their slurs ;)

[carole]

Originally posted by Lisita_IA
Tori: I believe that the guinea (sic in this context, i believe) tee is referring to the same origin that Audy originally referred to as the Dago tee. Both are slang terms referring to Italians.

Lisita

This sounds more likely to me - in terms of money, a guinea was actually a lot , so I don't think it comes from that!

And it seems to be from US slang that guinea was a derogatory term for an immigrant of Italian or Spanish origin, according to the OED at least!

[Dancing_Diva]

Originally posted by emtplatt
<snip>
I did not even begin to think of it as an But then someone made the point of the use of the word "gay" as in stupid and such. I have begun to notice just how much this pisses me off. A good friend of mine says it alot. Not much makes me uncomfortable but for some reason that does.
<snip>

When I was in my early 20s my (mostly queer) friends and I used to say "that's so gay, and not in the good way..." I think it was our way of reclaiming the term.

Now I have a friend who actually uses it to mean "lame" --I called her on it the first time. Now she pretty much has stopped using it. If she does, I'll ask "and not in the good way?" I'm her first queer friend...it's been an interesting experience to say the least.

(edited for formatting b/c I'm anal like that)

[EarthMaiden]

I am a survivor of domestic violence. I use the term wife-beaters, and I wear them (this discounts the notion that only butches wear them). While I understand the concern and contempt for the term, it is only a term. While orginally it may have been shown as an article of clothing that one who beat his wife wore it is now a term by most all individuals as a slang word for the A-Tee.


Also, when kids (I use that term loosely as I am but 23) started saying that thing are "gay (ghey)" it bothered me a bit. As I still don't use that term I am more open to it. I think it was about 99/00 I went to a GLBT youth meeting just trying to get in the community more. The high school students there used it. Actually, that was the reason I never went back. But these were GLBT youth using that term.

People take words and make them their own all the time. I for one don't like the term "queer" as queer means abnormal, strange. I am neither abnormal or strange. But I don't make a big deal out of it to those people who identify as queer.

I think it is a generational thing, along with the times. like I said, "Different strokes for different folks"

EarthMaiden

P.S. Hope I didn't offend anyone. Just my opinion.

[Kira]

However I do want to stress the point that has been made repeatedly here. It is not "just a word". It causes pain and emotional distress to a significant population.

I fully support a person's right to use words they are comfortable with. I also think it is healthy to challenge the language we use when harming others is so easily avoided.

Peace,
Kira

[EarthMaiden]

While I understand that the term is offensive to the majority that have posted here, what about the rest that use the term that just aren't speaking up? for an acurate scale of what is offensive and what is not, requires a total count of all persons, not just those that choose to respond. I play devils advocate a lot. And that is just my thing, I like to debate. But as I stated I do use that term. But the amount of the usage tends to lessen as it is offensive to some. And I would rather not do that.

[carole]

Originally posted by EarthMaiden
While I understand that the term is offensive to the majority that have posted here, what about the rest that use the term that just aren't speaking up? for an acurate scale of what is offensive and what is not, requires a total count of all persons, not just those that choose to respond. I play devils advocate a lot. And that is just my thing, I like to debate. But as I stated I do use that term. But the amount of the usage tends to lessen as it is offensive to some. And I would rather not do that.

And to do it properly, we need a scale of offensiveness too!

However, anecdotal evidence would seem to suggest that a significant number of people find it sufficiently offensive for them to post here, with all the effort that entails.

As a Brit, I had never heard of this term before. So, all I can personally say is that if I met someone from the US or wherever who used it, it would give me pause for thought, and also I have to admit that it would probably adversely effect my opinion of that person given that they used such a term.

[EarthMaiden]

My point is I think that while yes I acknowledge that the term is offensive for some, that overall it is a generation thing and possibly even a geographical thing. I am in a huge debate currently with my gf regarding this subject. BTW I don't think the term in any promotes the continuance of or the glorification of domestic abuse. I will write more later.

EarthMaiden

[Kira]

Being socially conscious and educated about domestic abuse is a matter of age or demographics? I don't think so. I have found few people, whether in Pennsylvania or Pakistan (been to both) who find anything related to wife beating amusing or something to be trivialized.

Try again.

[EarthMaiden]

Speaking as a person who was a victim of domestic abuse in both hetersexual and homosexual relationship I understand the sensitivity to the subject. But I am just saying that along with the term gay (ghey) it is possibly a generation thing. I am just saying that the term "wife-beater" is more comenly used within the United States versus other countries. Thus, making it more accepted (generally speaking) here than there. SO the statement, Kira, of "try again," is in itself kind of hostile. While I am just displaying the otherside of the argument it is not me who came up with the term. I am not saying it is ok to use, I am just playing devils advocate.

[tori]

Originally posted by EarthMaiden
I am a survivor of domestic violence. I use the term wife-beaters, and I wear them (this discounts the notion that only butches wear them). While I understand the concern and contempt for the term, it is only a term. While orginally it may have been shown as an article of clothing that one who beat his wife wore it is now a term by most all individuals as a slang word for the A-Tee.



but, you weren't "just playing devil's advocate". you say that you use it and that it is only a term. it isn't only a term. it isn't a term of reclamation, either. neither myself nor any of the many women i know who have been beaten would want to use it, or want to see it used.

[EarthMaiden]

Originally posted by tori
but, you weren't "just playing devil's advocate". you say that you use it and that it is only a term. it isn't only a term. it isn't a term of reclamation, either. neither myself nor any of the many women i know who have been beaten would want to use it, or want to see it used.

Are you saying that by my using it, it discounts the truth that I was physically abused by a partner? And yes, for a lot of people it is just a term. And I do use it. Not often as it isn't a topic that comes up. But I also stated that I have come to see the "offensiveness" of the term and do not use it as much as I once did. Although, I do not find it offensive I attempt to not offend others. So, yes, I am playing devils advocate. And come to think of it, the only time I use that term is with my gf. When we are deciding who's is who's.

[tori]

i was not insinuating that your claim of abuse was untrue on the basis of using this term. just that, in light of it, it seems rather flippant and insensitive.

[EarthMaiden]

Well, it was never meant to be "flippant and insensitive." Rather, just a term that I have used for as long as I can remember. I am not discounting anyones right to feel what they feel in regards to this term, only stating my opinion. and an opinion is just that an opinion. I have the hospital bills if that would make my "claim" more real.

[tori]

um ... again, i was not questioning your claim.

[ThinkPynk]

Ok so anyways, I think the term isn't exactly nice, but I use it. And I have also been a victim of domestic abuse, I wasn't his wife, but I am the mother of his child, and he did beat me...numerous times. But you know what, if I can't laugh at it now, I can't deal with it. THAT is the only way I've been able to deal with it.

A friend of mine told me that the shirts were called that as a joke. That I guess if you watch COPS often enough and you happen to catch a domestic violence episode (or whatever) the men who are being arrested for beating up their spouses usually had on one of those shirts.

So it's kinda funny to me. No offense to those people who don't think it's funny. I guess I just wanted to add my opinion here...

~Red~

*nodding head*

[Peach]

Racial epthets are "just word", but words that hurt and cause division, using them over and over do not make them right. Wife beater are just words, a term, that cause hurt and ugly memories to some people, and using them over and over doesnt make it any more "right'. some words or phrases are not worthy of reclaiming.

[Kira]

I thought you were fairly clear on that point. It is interesting. I do not think I have indicated my experience with violence/abuse. Primarily because I am not sure how relevant that is to the discussion. Everyone's experiences are very personal. IMO it is an issue of consciousness, not experience.

EarthMaiden, yes my "try again" statement was hostile. To the extent that hostility can be defined as resistance. I am wondering, in light of our exchange, and without the intention of sounding snide, if you have paused to consider the irony of your sig line?

[Kira]

Originally posted by Peach
Racial epthets are "just word", but words that hurt and cause division, using them over and over do not make them right. Wife beater are just words, a term, that cause hurt and ugly memories to some people, and using them over and over doesnt make it any more "right'. some words or phrases are not worthy of reclaiming.

Well said.

[EarthMaiden]

I am not reclaiming anything, for the record. There are words that are used that are offensive and hurtful to me. But to the rest of most people aren't. Like I stated previously the word Queer is terribly offensive to me, but thats just me. And I agree that racial epithets are hurtful terms. But in todays society there are lots of non PC terms that are hurtful and used in everday life. Queer, wifebeaters, fag, dyke, a particular one I saw the other day in the NY Times Lezzie. Personally, the last one, I would rather rip my ears off the hear that term used, BUT it is accepted and used not only within our community but outside of it as well. If we are looking to change the usage of the word wifebeater why not attempt to put a stop to all derogatory terms that are currently in use?

And also, whether or not gay is gay or ghey (which there is no word with the spelling) means the same thing no matter how you look at it. Just a way to sugar coat it without actually doing so.

[tori]

kira - i don't think it was particularly relevant to the discussion. i brought it up in response to what appeared as "i've been there, done that, and have no problem calling the t-shirt a wife beater", as another 'been there, done that' perspective. it is the trivialization of the term that gets under my skin, regardless of personal experience.

[tori]

we're not attempting to put a stop to anything. we discussing one particular term. i cannot stop anybody from doing anything, i can only let them know how it affects me, and then we each make our choices based on that. the only time i have ever "forbidden" somebody from using any word, was my own child, from using this particular term. does she use it when she isn't around me? probably. will she change that? i think so, since she is a generally sensitive person, and just lacks perspective and maturity.

[Kira]

Originally posted by tori
kira - i don't think it was particularly relevant to the discussion. i brought it up in response to what appeared as "i've been there, done that, and have no problem calling the t-shirt a wife beater", as another 'been there, done that' perspective. it is the trivialization of the term that gets under my skin, regardless of personal experience.

I was not questioning your response, rather I was concurring with it. Sorry, bad typing day. Damn it, Mercury isn't retrograde anymore. WHY am I still having communication issues?

And now I am off to the naturopath to get stuck full of needles. I heart that gal.

[tori]

lol - no, my bad - i did not think that you were questioning my response. i only elaborated on the 'why' since i was agreeing with you that it wasn't relevant.

happy puncturing :p

[EarthMaiden]

Well, my appologies to anyone who feels offended. I was just stating my opinion. As it has been said I will leave it at that. I was just showing the other side to the argument. As far as my signature line. I see no relation between this discussion and that exerpt. It is a general feminist statement in regards to the way the men treat women. It is neither relevant to this (as domestic violence also happens with same sex couples). It was written many many many years ago. Should you see the relevance or know who Sor Juana was then maybe you could enlighten me.

[tori]

i'm confused, i think. in case i'm reading correctly, and your don't know who sor juana is ... http://oregonstate.edu/instruct/phl302/philosophers/cruz.html (a nice starting place)

[EarthMaiden]

My mistake. Sitting in front of this thing all day can do that to me. I know do know who Sor Juana was. Just meant that if you saw something I didn't, I would be accepting of the thoughts.

EarthMaiden

[southernbutchie]

Ok...just had to put my .02 in on this thread. I agree that the term "wife beater" is a very repulsive way to describe this particular item of clothing. In fact...my friends and I actually refer to them as something a lot less offensive. We call them "get off my farm" shirts. Not sure how we got started calling them that....but it sure is a lot less offensive. None of us even wear them...in fact...we sort of poke fun at the butches that do. Not many people can pull of wearing one...and the ones that do, seem to pick the most inappropiate time to have one on. To each hys own though.

SB

[Kira]

Originally posted by southernbutchie
Ok...just had to put my .02 in on this thread. I agree that the term "wife beater" is a very repulsive way to describe this particular item of clothing. In fact...my friends and I actually refer to them as something a lot less offensive. We call them "get off my farm" shirts. Not sure how we got started calling them that....but it sure is a lot less offensive. None of us even wear them...in fact...we sort of poke fun at the butches that do. Not many people can pull of wearing one...and the ones that do, seem to pick the most inappropiate time to have one on. To each hys own though.

SB

I grew up in South Dakota and can definitely appreciate the humor in the "get off my farm" term. Thanks for that. I needed to giggle. Laughter is good medicine yadda yadda yadda.

[Aceseyecandy]

where I'm from their called muscle shirts and God do I love when my husband has one on and does a little flexing for me, I could just pass out from excitement....but to be honest when I saw the name of the thread I really thought it was about when to beat your wife, like some sort of bdsm thing...oops I pulled a Jessica, or maybe that's a Anna. now did I offend dumb blondes?

[GrrlWonder]

So just call it a beater.

my baby calls it a beater.

"Hey Bitch did ya wash my beaters?"